[hamdani yusuf]

Scientists have continuously improved their understanding about consciousness. Here is one of newest results.

In a wild new experiment conducted on monkeys, scientists discovered that a tiny, but powerful area of the brain may enable consciousness: the central lateral thalamus. Activation of the central lateral thalamus and deep layers of the cerebral cortex drives pathways in the brain that carry information between the parietal and frontal lobe in the brain, the study suggests.
This brain circuit works as a sort-of “engine for consciousness,” the researchers say, enabling conscious thought and feeling in primates.

To zero in on this brain circuit, a scientific team put macaque monkeys under anesthesia, then stimulated different parts of their brain with electrodes at a frequency of 50 Hertz. Essentially, they zapped different areas of the brain and observed how the monkeys responded. When the central lateral thalamus was stimulated, the monkeys woke up and their brain function resumed — even though they were STILL UNDER ANESTHESIA. Seconds after the scientists switched off the stimulation, the monkeys went right back to sleep.

This research was published Wednesday in the journal Neuron.

“Science doesn’t often leave opportunity for exhilaration, but that’s what that moment was like for those of us who were in the room,” co-author Michelle Redinbaugh, a researcher at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, tells Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/3d-brain-models-crucial-stage-of-human-development
https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(20)30005-2

[alancalverd]

This needs more time than I have at the moment to address. You are emoting based on false facts and fake news.

Nothing fake about pogroms, jihad, inquisition, crusades, regular sectarian bloodshed east of Suez, the knuckledraggers in Northern Ireland who throw stones at children whose parents are assumed to worship the same god through a different rite, or those perverts who practice celibacy with choirboys. 

And possibly fears introduced at childhood if you attended religious ceremonies in the Jewish faith - but you would have to give some personal information about this.

Interestingly, Jewish ceremonies and calendar events are mostly about celebration and feasting, from weekly Shabbat to serious Pesach nosh-ups, with Purim and Chanukah particularly for the kids, and all accompanied by singing, music, and good wine (not asserted to be the blood of a dead rabbi). Yom Kippur is about personal and group atonement for things actually done, not fear of retribution for things not done. Self-flagellation and walking up steps on your knees for fear of spending eternity in Hell because you haven't attended enough Masses, are inflicted by the perverted on the gullible, not us.   

[CliveG]

cat's fear center

That's essentially the same as a "don't run into trees" centre.

Did you get the difference between destroy the center and construct the center?

[CliveG]

. I have lots of personal proof

i.e. not "proof".

Let me see. I hypnotize a young girl when I was a teenager and ask her to read minds. She says that Girl A has a crush on Boy B. Girl A blushed red-faced. The other girls break out laughing and say "But you say you dislike him a lot". Since I was aware of sub-vocalization I sent the others into another room. The mind reading still happened accurately.

I tested it by checking the time (about 10 minutes past 9 or so) and thinking hard that a friend should check the time and remember it. The next day I ask her if anything unusual happened last night that she remembers. "Yes. I felt I had to check the time. It was such a strong feeling that I got up and went to the kitchen to be sure the time was correct." Pretty much to the minute.

I went to stay with a friend. He said the woman next door was an exhibitionist who would have sex in front of the open window on the 11 floor and scream her heart out. The whole building watched and listened to her. From his window he had a very close view. I was in bed when I heard the screaming and my friend was not there. I went to the window and moved the curtains slightly. Sure enough she was on her back and very active. But the moment I saw her, she suddenly stopped and looked out her window to the window I was at. I was in darkness and had moved the curtain ever so slightly so there was no way she could see me. I moved away and heard her close the curtains and was quiet. No more exhibitionism from her from then on. Clearly there was a mental connection that was sudden and startlingly to her. What it was I have no idea. I was simply curious and not judgmental.

So I could on and on. But you surely get the idea. And what you would call that but personal proof?

[CliveG]

Scientists have continuously improved their understanding about consciousness. Here is one of newest results.

In a wild new experiment conducted on monkeys, scientists discovered that a tiny, but powerful area of the brain may enable consciousness: the central lateral thalamus. Activation of the central lateral thalamus and deep layers of the cerebral cortex drives pathways in the brain that carry information between the parietal and frontal lobe in the brain, the study suggests.
This brain circuit works as a sort-of “engine for consciousness,” the researchers say, enabling conscious thought and feeling in primates.

To zero in on this brain circuit, a scientific team put macaque monkeys under anesthesia, then stimulated different parts of their brain with electrodes at a frequency of 50 Hertz. Essentially, they zapped different areas of the brain and observed how the monkeys responded. When the central lateral thalamus was stimulated, the monkeys woke up and their brain function resumed — even though they were STILL UNDER ANESTHESIA. Seconds after the scientists switched off the stimulation, the monkeys went right back to sleep.

This research was published Wednesday in the journal Neuron.

“Science doesn’t often leave opportunity for exhilaration, but that’s what that moment was like for those of us who were in the room,” co-author Michelle Redinbaugh, a researcher at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, tells Inverse.

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/3d-brain-models-crucial-stage-of-human-development
https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(20)30005-2

Thanks for those links. I will follow up and study the details for that is where the interpretation of results is critical.

I do not doubt the brain is a machine of sorts. I know I can be knocked unconsciously and a little bit of most chemicals can affect my thinking. What I am saying is that the bottom layer of fine tuning the consciousness MAY be assisted by the soul (using spirit as in intermediary). The soul is formless but the spirit takes the shape of the living physical organism. When the organism dies the soul leaves as does the spirit which also rapidly decays. But as I have experienced the spirit and soul might linger on as a ghost to try to do something. In my case it was a suicide who wanted me to apologize to a friend for the horror of finding a rotting corpse after a week in a pickup in the hot scrub. The spirit had enough energy to cause daily problems (hauntings) so it got my attention.

The delicate machine that is the brain can communicate to the spirit world. Because the communication is faint it usually takes place in calm surroundings when the brain is in idle mode. Unfortunately this means that the stress of testing disrupts any communications (not with fakes who are making it up as they go). It will be a while before consciousness and qualia are better understood. But I love the research and the investigations.

[alancalverd]

No more exhibitionism from her from then on.

What gave you the authority to spoil everyone else's harmless entertainment and shame a woman who was hurting nobody? Religious perversion, perhaps? 

[CliveG]

This needs more time than I have at the moment to address. You are emoting based on false facts and fake news.

Nothing fake about pogroms, jihad, inquisition, crusades, regular sectarian bloodshed east of Suez, the knuckledraggers in Northern Ireland who throw stones at children whose parents are assumed to worship the same god through a different rite, or those perverts who practice celibacy with choirboys. 

And possibly fears introduced at childhood if you attended religious ceremonies in the Jewish faith - but you would have to give some personal information about this.

Interestingly, Jewish ceremonies and calendar events are mostly about celebration and feasting, from weekly Shabbat to serious Pesach nosh-ups, with Purim and Chanukah particularly for the kids, and all accompanied by singing, music, and good wine (not asserted to be the blood of a dead rabbi). Yom Kippur is about personal and group atonement for things actually done, not fear of retribution for things not done. Self-flagellation and walking up steps on your knees for fear of spending eternity in Hell because you haven't attended enough Masses, are inflicted by the perverted on the gullible, not us.

I have just sat outside on out porch and enjoyed a lovely meal and wine with my wife. For some reason I have no pain today and did not take any pain tablets.

I am going to stress that your image of Islam, Christianity and Judaism is so distorted I would have trouble knowing where to start.

But most of all, you have no idea of Jewish history - particularly from the time of Christ to the present day. The bad stuff is suppressed and mostly out of public knowledge. The good stuff is fantastic and of course proudly bragged about and justly so.

My second wife was a woman whose father was Jewish and very wealthy. Her stepmother (originally a Christian nurse) married upwards to an even richer Jewish man. I nearly converted to Judaism in order to marry a Jewish woman in Hartsdale NY. I was with her for about 2 years. My third wife was a Jewish woman from Brooklyn NY from the very heart of Jewishdom. My son with her was raised in the Jewish faith although he later became an atheist.

God has led me to various publications, mostly by Jewish authors, and the bad stuff is really bad. I mean ugly and evil. There are so many facts (yes, facts - because Jews love to write and record stuff). Mostly, I admire Jews for what they have achieved and the advances that many brilliant Jewish men have brought to the world. The dark side mirrors that good where the talents are used for seriously destructive ends - to say the least.

The problem is that many of the Jewish authors and critics of the Jewish religion (and Israel as well) are targets of hate and are called self-hating Jews. I am not Jewish. Dare I bring up facts about Jews that most societies would rather ignore? The problem is that if Jews do not recognize their failings (religious and tribal) they will carry on bearing the consequences but, worst of all, the world will suffer because of the enormous power and influence that the Jewish people wield. The Jewish religion is the one most in need of reform in order to bring about a better and more harmonious world.

How does one go about that? I do not wish to get personal with you. I see the defensiveness rear up and it is not fair on a public platform even if I try my best to be moderate and be constructive in my views.

[Bored chemist]

But the moment I saw her, she suddenly stopped and looked out her window to the window I was at. I was in darkness and had moved the curtain ever so slightly so there was no way she could see me.

Nice bit of self- delusion there.

[CliveG]

No more exhibitionism from her from then on.

What gave you the authority to spoil everyone else's harmless entertainment and shame a woman who was hurting nobody? Religious perversion, perhaps?

Physically, she had no idea I was there. You are admitting that mental telepathy communicated something in me to that woman. I am no prude or saint so what was it? How did I shame her? And what sort of religious perversion are you thinking about? Why even insinuate such a thing about me except to denigrate me? And why do that in a scientific debate?

[CliveG]

But the moment I saw her, she suddenly stopped and looked out her window to the window I was at. I was in darkness and had moved the curtain ever so slightly so there was no way she could see me.

Nice bit of self- delusion there.

I was careful with my words to describe the situation. She was in the middle of something that even a bombing by an air force would hardly result in a distraction. Explain what you mean - I do not follow you. Maybe it is the only way you have to explain a very weird happening. Grasping at straws methinks.

[Kryptid]

I was trying to show that a logical machine (which I once was) would view life as mechanical and therefore meaningless. If there is no meaning to life then killing it just switching off another machine. Which it how I viewed killing the cat when I was a teenager. I was still moral in that I did it to relieve the suffering. I could just as easily have let it die slowly on the basis that suffering is just electronic impulses. I am pointing out that if one takes atheism with a mechanical belief to its logical conclusion then morality and doing good are meaningless. If meaningless, why get emotional?

I have sometimes wondered if this could be a solution to the Fermi paradox. Maybe sufficiently-advanced civilizations come upon some slam-dunk evidence that either existence is meaningless, free will doesn't exist or some other profoundly sobering truth. The ensuing existential crisis prompts them to either commit mass suicide or simply refrain from reproducing until they become extinct. However, given that there are people who already believe those things but still seem to live a happy life, I'm guessing that hypothesis is unlikely to be true.

[CliveG]

I was trying to show that a logical machine (which I once was) would view life as mechanical and therefore meaningless. If there is no meaning to life then killing it just switching off another machine. Which it how I viewed killing the cat when I was a teenager. I was still moral in that I did it to relieve the suffering. I could just as easily have let it die slowly on the basis that suffering is just electronic impulses. I am pointing out that if one takes atheism with a mechanical belief to its logical conclusion then morality and doing good are meaningless. If meaningless, why get emotional?

I have sometimes wondered if this could be a solution to the Fermi paradox. Maybe sufficiently-advanced civilizations come upon some slam-dunk evidence that either existence is meaningless, free will doesn't exist or some other profoundly sobering truth. The ensuing existential crisis prompts them to either commit mass suicide or simply refrain from reproducing until they become extinct. However, given that there are people who already believe those things but still seem to live a happy life, I'm guessing that hypothesis is unlikely to be true.

My personal view it that the Fermi paradox is a modern example of the power of logical thought. Einstein used thought experiments very successfully.

You are aware that one answer to the Fermi paradox is that Earth is unique for one of two possible reasons. The mechanical reason is that it is so difficult to get life to evolve that only one planet namely Earth achieved all the conditions. The spiritual reason is that God (and the Ultimate Intelligence) did not need other planets for the drama that is life on Earth. Earth was the Garden of Eden.

I favor the second because one has to admit that the beauty (savage as it can get at times) is stunning. I admire the butterflies and the honey bee and the intricate landscapes of a planet forged by constant change and weathering to be able to support the abundance of life. My wife and I constantly visit Pilanesberg - a game reserve 2 hours from Johannesburg - and we never tire of the natural beauty and the creatures.

If Earth is truly God's (and the Ultimate Intelligence) creation then why would he want it to die? The logical conclusion is that he will allow natural forces to stop humankind from going too far in destroying this planet. A.I. is not a substitute for life. It truly is mechanical and truly is your P-zombie.

What bothers me is that I experienced one end of the Universe as we know it. The Ultimate Intelligence simply stopped the dream. Luckily it decided to continue the dream from where it left off, and I returned, wondering what I had experienced. It was not life-changing. I just thought that I knew what the universe was all about and it did not change my enjoyment of it. Only now do I see the profound implications.

So we could see a Petrie-dish die-off or dystopia and then have it end so that the Game Number XXXX can restart with slightly different initial conditions. But my feeling is that God wants humankind to change to become cooperative and spiritual. It will not happen without serious pain and social unrest unfortunately.

[CliveG]

This needs more time than I have at the moment to address. You are emoting based on false facts and fake news.

Nothing fake about pogroms, jihad, inquisition, crusades, regular sectarian bloodshed east of Suez, the knuckledraggers in Northern Ireland who throw stones at children whose parents are assumed to worship the same god through a different rite, or those perverts who practice celibacy with choirboys. 

And possibly fears introduced at childhood if you attended religious ceremonies in the Jewish faith - but you would have to give some personal information about this.

Interestingly, Jewish ceremonies and calendar events are mostly about celebration and feasting, from weekly Shabbat to serious Pesach nosh-ups, with Purim and Chanukah particularly for the kids, and all accompanied by singing, music, and good wine (not asserted to be the blood of a dead rabbi). Yom Kippur is about personal and group atonement for things actually done, not fear of retribution for things not done. Self-flagellation and walking up steps on your knees for fear of spending eternity in Hell because you haven't attended enough Masses, are inflicted by the perverted on the gullible, not us.

A couple of comments. It seems I have embarked on a course I cannot change.

You are probably correct about some parts of the Christian religion and some parents putting the "fear of God" into children. Christianity has its abuses by those in power for almost the entire history. Child abuse by priest being its darkest shame in recent days. The lack of tolerance shown by Christians towards other races and religions and nations is a problem that needs to be resolved.

You need to read the Quran as it was written to see the wisdom and the tolerance preached by Muhammad. He was however a warrior who conquered and converted. He did not destroy cities as long as they were peaceful. He allowed Jews and Christians to practice their religion as children of the book. He did tax them because they did not contribute to the whole indirectly as others did. Almost all his teachings were from the Old and New Testaments. He introduced new laws and modified others so as to unify society. He was merciful to those he conquered and only taught that those who want to actively destroy Islam are the unbelievers who should be put to the sword. Their actual beliefs were immaterial - they were a threat.

The Jewish traditions seem like good fun and games on the surface. And for the most part they are. The problem is that the poison is administered with honey. The ceremonies are all about the near destruction of the Jewish people. Never again. The holocaust is a new element. Children hear how those non-Jews surrounding them cannot be trusted and will enslave or exterminate them given half a chance. I saw this result in fear and reclusive behavior in older Jews. It results in expressions of anger against Christians and Muslims.

Jews recognize the need to live and work in non-Jewish society. They are very sociable and affable and know how to fit in. But they retain the fear and the distrust. The leaders of the Jewish movements also are aware of this and they exploit it to keep Jews faithful to the tribe if not to the religion. It causes dissonance in people. Some Jews like Feinstein reject their Jewishness but it is very hard to do. Debate is suppressed and people are told that only Jews can debate among themselves. This means that outside objective opinions like mine are not heard - only rejected as further proof of insidious antisemitism.

Somehow I hope that there are Jews who will see the need for change if the world is to survive.

[alancalverd]

Are you writing from ignorance, which is lamentable, or prejudice, which is inexcusable, in a science forum?

Being a member of a race that has been attacked by Philistines, Romans, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Nazis, Communists (even though our brethren wrote their manifesto - talk about chutzpah!) and the Labour Party,  can make you just a teeny bit cautious. "By their deeds shall ye know them", said one of our rabbis, and was crucified by the Romans to prove the point.

However, unlike all the foregoing (except for sexually inadequate Muslims, who apparently are commanded to exterminate unbelievers including each other, and the Labour Party, which is just beginning to flush itself down the toilet), we are still here and doing our thing, so there's still something to celebrate.

[Bored chemist]

She was in the middle of something that even a bombing by an air force would hardly result in a distraction.

What you tacitly said was that she was in the middle of doing something she regarded as commonplace.
Of course she would be distracted.
If as you imply, she was an exhibitionist then her goal was actually to be noticed. She would have kept a very close eye on peoples curtains to see if they twitched.

[CliveG]

She was in the middle of something that even a bombing by an air force would hardly result in a distraction.

What you tacitly said was that she was in the middle of doing something she regarded as commonplace.
Of course she would be distracted.
If as you imply, she was an exhibitionist then her goal was actually to be noticed. She would have kept a very close eye on peoples curtains to see if they twitched.

It is hard to believe that you continue to follow this line of argument. I can only think you find it entertaining. Or once more God wants me to respond and I will because there were some things I thought of afterward.

It was night time and the woman was on the kitchen table if I remember correctly. The kitchen was very brightly lit. A stage so to speak. Have you ever been on a brightly lit stage trying to look into the audience? It is a black hole. This was exactly that. The woman had her head tilted backward and was in full-throated scream - probably with eyes closed. Although she knew she had to have an audience she did not care about who and why.

But why stop so suddenly and abruptly and angrily? Something really disturbed her. And it had to be mental.

I was once at a crowded cafe and I was people watching. On the other side of the road, walking away from me, a well-dressed sexy woman caught my eye. I casually admired her from a distance but my mind was in "idle mode". She stopped and turned around to glare at me. Despite the crowds and the distance, it was still quite clear it was me she was glaring at. I have this happen often, except most woman give me a warm smile. I suppose I am judgmental in that the nice woman give me a nice smile and the "others" tend to glare angrily.

So I guess with the exhibitionist I was curious and looking forward to a sex show but I must have also had in the back of my mind that this was perverted behaviour on her part (yes, and a little on my part too to be honest). Who knows how many people she disturbed? And how many small children got exposed to something that most societies frown upon?

God is okay with sex and the enjoyment of sex. A certain amount of titillation is not bad. Perversion is not good. Sex is such a strong drive that it is understandable that things can go off the rails. But just as one must try to be a good person as far as theft and abuse of others, there must also be limits on behavior. The extreme is cutting up your partner and eating them afterward. The mild mannered husband who goes to a prostitute and then kills them in serial fashion has a serious moral problem. The line might be gray and blurred, but it is not a matter of anything goes - even between consenting adults.

[CliveG]

Are you writing from ignorance, which is lamentable, or prejudice, which is inexcusable, in a science forum?

Being a member of a race that has been attacked by Philistines, Romans, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Nazis, Communists (even though our brethren wrote their manifesto - talk about chutzpah!) and the Labour Party,  can make you just a teeny bit cautious. "By their deeds shall ye know them", said one of our rabbis, and was crucified by the Romans to prove the point.

However, unlike all the foregoing (except for sexually inadequate Muslims, who apparently are commanded to exterminate unbelievers including each other, and the Labour Party, which is just beginning to flush itself down the toilet), we are still here and doing our thing, so there's still something to celebrate.

Strangely, I am writing from a position with a lot of knowledge, both personal and from extensive research. Some documents I happened upon while doing a search on something other than religion or Jewishness. The coincidence and serendipity I often refer to. I not only read them but some were hard to believe so I researched various parts and it turned out they were true.

You are quite right that the Jews have often been attacked and persecuted through history. Have you asked why that is? Are you familiar with histories that document the circumstances leading to the attacks and persecution. The truth may surprise you but it seems your fear will reject the truth.

As far as prejudice, this is the debate stopping accusation I was referring to. The problem is that while I am not prejudiced there are many who are - and the truth will give them ammunition. You rightly fear that, and it is a problem for me. I am choosing my words very carefully and feel I am walking in an emotional and intellectual minefield. I used to try to refer to Jews by avoiding the word Jew thinking it was offensive. I used references such as Jewish person, Jewish people and so on. A Jewish site pointed out that it is actually offensive to do that.

So how does one criticize the Jewish religion constructively? Most people get upset if this is done to them on a personal basis. "I would not wear that dress dear. It does not become you." Uh oh. Dog box time. Have a look at the insults you heap upon Christians and Muslims - why can you do that with impunity? There is little doubt you despise religion yet you treat any criticism of the Jewish people as a tribal criticism and antisemitic.

Jews are proud of some traits they regard as distinctly Jewish - but do not want others to critique whether such traits are helpful to them in the long run or to society. I did go to the Catskills - the Borscht Belt, or Jewish Alps - and listen to the Jewish comedians telling Jewish jokes which were not really complimentary. A Jew would be highly offended if the same joke were told by a Christian let alone a Muslim.

Let me give you an example of personal experience leading to knowledge when I researched the reasons. I went to a Christian dinner and I heard two German women disagreeing about the Americans. One hated them and the younger one loved them. Their post war stories were so different. My research showed that after the war the Morganthau Plan was implemented. Named after Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jnr. It aimed to turn Germany into a potato patch. He wanted them sterilized. Possibly two million Germans starved to death although many were in trouble anyway as a result of the war. But then the US saw that in East Germany there were soup kitchens and construction and feared the Communists. So the Marshall Plan was implemented. One woman told of the starvation and moldy food and one told of candy and plenty. It was a matter of a few years difference in age.

The Morganthau plan was known in Germany before the end of the war and was used to get Germans to fight to the bitter end. Other prominent voices did not help such as this publication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

Of course, historians disagree as to extent and intent. And there are discussions of antisemitism. Yes, the antisemites use it and distort it. But it was not a proud moment. It was worse than the Treaty of Versailles, and luckily people saw the folly of such a plan.

There are many other issues about the proof of God so I do not want to spend much time on this topic. It will get too emotional on the part of both readers and posters.

[Bored chemist]

Or once more God wants me to respond

Conceited; much.

[Bored chemist]

Perversion is not good.

So, for example, voyeurism...?

[alancalverd]

you treat any criticism of the Jewish people as a tribal criticism and antisemitic.

Obviously, if you criticise "the Jewish people" you are indeed criticising a tribe. The odd thing is that "semitic" includes a whole raft of tribes, most of whom speak Arabic and very few of whom are Jews.

The Morgenthau Plan was about deindustrialisation of the Ruhr, not sterilisation of people - that was Nazi policy. But don't let the facts get in the way of whatever it is that you are arguing about.

I casually admired her from a distance but my mind was in "idle mode".

Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So that's one more passenger for the hellfire train, eh? Voyeurism, adultery, blasphemy.....this thread is turning into a confessional.