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  4. Can science prove God exists?
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Can science prove God exists?

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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #340 on: 26/02/2020 07:01:10 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/02/2020 16:59:17
Quote from: CliveG on 24/02/2020 05:37:38
Added to that was a need for secrecy
Secrecy? There are plenty of books on Judaism, about half written by people who knew what they were talking about.

Quote
[But there is a price to pay - paranoia.
We do indeed suffer from the paranoia that demagogues induce in others, but the most balanced and rational people I have met were survivors of Nazi and Communist antisemitism.

The secrecy was in place until very recently. Judaism used a "secret language," namely Hebrew, for its texts and writings and they were not available to others. Likewise with the ceremonies. When I visited a synagogue in NY there was a group of men talking business on the side. As I approached to walk past they all stopped and evaluated me. Despite my dark wavy hair I was seen as a goyim (non-Jew) and the talk stopped until I passed by. Now that there is wide-spread publication, the new tactic is disinformation and attacking any disseminators of the truth.

It stands to reason that the least paranoid were actual victims. They had survived and there was little chance of a repeat. The imaginings are worse than the actual experience - hard as that might be to believe. That is why the participation of little children in ceremonies that "celebrate" survival of a horrible event are terribly disturbing to a growing mind. Add "Jewish guilt" to that to compound it.

Which is why I think Judaism should update. For its own sake.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #341 on: 26/02/2020 08:06:05 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 04:55:39
To have a son, the God would have to have a wife and be capable of procreation, not to mention dying thereafter.
And, for all you actually   know, He does.

So, what was your point there?
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 05:05:08
Here is one example of a possible "sixth sense". You could say I am unusually observant - which would also boost my credentials. Note that I accept that I could somehow have seen the hidden watch.

On a hike our group were camped by a field. I noticed a group of about ten hikers searching in the field as a distressed woman guided them. After about 45 minutes, they gave up one by one. The woman was left crying with her husband. I walked up and said I have a talent for finding missing things and have done so a number of times. I asked her what she lost and where she thinks she lost it. It was the center of the search area. I walked around for a couple of minutes and then bent down and moved a clump of grass to the side. There was the missing watch - an expensive heirloom. She ran at me and jumped onto me to hug me. I thought I was being grabbed by an octopus she held so tight.

So when I claim to be able to do something I can often deliver.
Luck.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #342 on: 26/02/2020 08:09:23 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 07:01:10
The secrecy was in place until very recently.
No, not for a thousand years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_ibn_Abitur
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #343 on: 26/02/2020 08:15:15 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 05:25:37
Another example of a "sixth sense".
Or the ability to use (but not to spell) a Megger.

Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 05:25:37
I tested a large smelting transformer and told them that the meggar test failed.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #344 on: 26/02/2020 10:55:47 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/02/2020 08:15:15
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 05:25:37
Another example of a "sixth sense".
Or the ability to use (but not to spell) a Megger.

Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 05:25:37
I tested a large smelting transformer and told them that the meggar test failed.

I have been telling you my spelling is atrocious because of brain shrinkage and deterioration in my language center. I was not sure of the spelling and did not want to check it as I typically do.

Gold star for correcting my error. Not a spot the deliberate mistake.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #345 on: 26/02/2020 11:01:12 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/02/2020 08:09:23
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 07:01:10
The secrecy was in place until very recently.
No, not for a thousand years or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_ibn_Abitur

Not exactly a wide publication. Perhaps to a sympathetic eye?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah
This so-called Baghdad Manifesto was read out in Friday mosques throughout the 'Abbasid domains accusing the Fatimids of Jewish ancestry. In addition, because of Al-Hakim's alleged Christian mother, he was accused of being over-sympathetic to non-Muslims, giving them more privileges than they should have been given under Islamic rule.


Do you think it disqualifies my statement about secrecy? Once more I refer to extensive historical reading on my part.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #346 on: 26/02/2020 11:25:37 »
This morning I saw a news piece about the fungus destroying the tomato crops in Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania because of record rains. The locust swarms in Ethiopia and Somalia are also due to heavy rainfalls. The Chinese pork industry has been hit hard by a pig virus.

I have said for a while that the world went through very calm centuries (about 10,000 years) where humankind had a chance to thrive and expand. God may have permitted that by limiting natural disasters (and allowing the one that wiped out the dinosaurs). Now he is sitting back and not intervening. Gods planned fix for global warming - do nothing. Except for an enlightened few.

The point of this. I have claimed that the world will experience a die-off due to a variety of causes. In 2009 I thought it would be a viral pandemic, then I thought it would be a fungal-virus combination that would weaken immune systems, but now I think that it will be cell towers weakening immune systems and causing mutations.

How about this scenario. The corona virus is fairly dormant until the host experiences cellular disruption due to being near higher and longer than usual cell microwaves. These cause the cells to have unbalanced VGCCs (voltage gated calcium channels) and these produce excess ROS (reactive oxygen species) which in turn make the cell vulnerable to attack by pathogens, and cause more mutations.

Support for my theory. No viral outbreak (yet) in poor regions. Outbreaks in hi-tech (hi-cell coverage) areas. High outbreak in a ship with lots of Wifi. Older people with compromised immune systems which are the people made worse by cell microwave. The virus seems to "hide" until activated - perhaps by cell microwave.

Why do I think this? Because I believe God wanted to teach me lessons. Why else make me suffer so much? I learned a lot, believe me. I think he allowed the cell tower next door to us with unusually high radiation and had me experience how the microwaves degrade the human system. We now have a great home - a blessing I believe.

Just some musings to make people think. Going to the country and leaving your cell devices at home might be a refuge. Of course Bored Chemist and the cell industry will be working hard to persuade you otherwise. Time will tell for those of us let alive.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #347 on: 26/02/2020 13:52:48 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 11:01:12
Do you think it disqualifies my statement about secrecy?
The definition of the word disqualifies your statement.
It's not as if that 1000 year old version is the only translation.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #348 on: 26/02/2020 13:53:40 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 11:25:37
How about this scenario.
It's bad sci fi.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #349 on: 26/02/2020 14:31:41 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/02/2020 13:52:48
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 11:01:12
Do you think it disqualifies my statement about secrecy?
The definition of the word disqualifies your statement.
It's not as if that 1000 year old version is the only translation.

So you think the general populace and the rulers of countries up until 1900 were aware of what the Jewish teachings were and what the rituals were all about? No way. Give me proof of what you say.

I say there were rabbinical edicts that Jews could put out false writings and false information if it served as self-protection. I do not blame them - it was a clever tactic, but did not resolve the suspicion of the religion.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #350 on: 26/02/2020 14:52:02 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/02/2020 13:53:40
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 11:25:37
How about this scenario.
It's bad sci fi.

Keep disputing it. My wife needs to sell the house next to the cell tower before any such theory gains traction.

As far as the impact on the economy you should not forget that the crash of 2008 (which I saw coming when my late wife asked my to check the Tarot cards) did not result in the correction that it should have. The toxic debt is still on the balance sheets of many banks. Not at market value but at whatever the banks think it is worth. A lot was bought by central banks. The current economy is smoke and mirrors - a giant Ponzi scheme and the government has no options left. The true correction will be a blood bath. Bad sci-fi? Some economists think it is inevitable. The internet may collapse and I will not be able to say "I told you so."

In 2008 she cashed in her provident fund at maximum value and sold her house which turned out to be a blessing.

I remember looking at the financials of Bear Sterns or Lehman that they put out just before the crash. I looked for the debt and could not find it. I realized that they classed debt as an "asset" but saying that these collateralized debt options were somehow income assets because they could be sold on at a higher value. And I am an engineer although I can read a financial statement.

I had some property investments with one of these companies just before the 1987 Black Monday crash (which I also saw) and tried to sell them. My third wife's brother who we bought them from kept stalling. I wanted solid post office investments. After the crash I wanted to sell them and was told they were worth twice what I paid. I said sell them. They said no-one will buy them. True value equals zero. We only just sold our Manhattan apartment in time - the same week as the crash.

Yes. Those God hints have a practical side.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #351 on: 26/02/2020 16:22:21 »
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 14:31:41
So you think the general populace and the rulers of countries up until 1900

Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 07:01:10
The secrecy was in place until very recently.


Nice attempt there, but put the goalpost back where it was.

However, the answer to your question is demonstrably yes
"The unofficial visit of Prince George and his brothers to Jerusalem, including their participation at the Passover Seder held at the home of the the Chief Rabbi Raphael Meir Panigel, is also documented in the Hebrew booklet “The Visit of the Princes of England in Jerusalem” written by the famous writer and researcher Pinchas Graiewski (1873-1941) together with Baruch Priver."

from
https://blog.nli.org.il/en/king_george_v_pessach_1882/

And before that too
http://strangeside.com/adler-rabbi-nathan-and-queen-victoria/
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #352 on: 27/02/2020 05:01:33 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/02/2020 16:22:21
Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 14:31:41
So you think the general populace and the rulers of countries up until 1900

Quote from: CliveG on 26/02/2020 07:01:10
The secrecy was in place until very recently.


Nice attempt there, but put the goalpost back where it was.

However, the answer to your question is demonstrably yes
"The unofficial visit of Prince George and his brothers to Jerusalem, including their participation at the Passover Seder held at the home of the the Chief Rabbi Raphael Meir Panigel, is also documented in the Hebrew booklet “The Visit of the Princes of England in Jerusalem” written by the famous writer and researcher Pinchas Graiewski (1873-1941) together with Baruch Priver."

from
https://blog.nli.org.il/en/king_george_v_pessach_1882/

And before that too
http://strangeside.com/adler-rabbi-nathan-and-queen-victoria/

One word answer - propaganda.

How many people (kings and queens included know this about the basics of Judaism). Practiced by Jews of many denominations.

All three Abrahamic religions stress charity. Giving to those less fortunate is mandated.
There are two charities I trust to use the contributions to the best of those who need them. One is the Salvation Army (Christian) and one is the Gift of the Givers (Muslim). There are two international aid organizations. One is the Red Cross (Christian) and one is the Red Crescent (Muslim).
There is no Jewish equivalent, despite massive philanthropic contributions by wealthy Jews. From what I can make out, most of their contributions go to Jewish charities for Jewish people, or they build universities and hospitals that benefit the Jewish community.
Jewish law has a priority of giving to the poor and needy.
1. Poor relatives (familial proximity)
2. Jewish people/Jewish community (religio-ethnic proximity)
3. People in local town or Israeli towns (geographic proximity)
4. People who live in another town
5. Non-poverty Jewish causes (religio-ethnic proximity)
6. Non-poverty local causes/Israeli causes (geographic proximity)
7. Non-poverty, non-local organizations e.g. Cancer, Greenpeace.
Gentiles come last and only if not giving would cause antagonism to Jews. This priority with regard to Jewishness is watered down the further one goes from Orthodox sites. Jewish people know that Jewish causes come first.

While charity begins at home and most people do so within their community there is a massive amount of Christian money that goes to the poorer Jews in Israel.

In 1940, British historian Arthur Bryant wrote a book entitled 'Unfinished Victory' about the German history between 1919 and 1939. It was well received at first. Then he was forced to withdraw it and buy back all 5,000 copies because it was seen as proposing a compromise. It was also seen as antisemitic. There are two viewpoints - one is that he self-censors because of the mood of the nation, the other is that he was pressured because it was seen as antisemitic. It does provide a very different perspective compared to the history of today.

https://www.unz.com/book/arthur_bryant__unfinished-victory/
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0031322032000185569

My late wife told me she spoke with an older German who lived through the war. His comment about the German Jews before the war was "You should have seen how they treated us."

Once more I say that people should properly learn the lessons of history lest they be repeated. There are often two sides to any story.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #353 on: 27/02/2020 08:49:09 »
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One is the Red Cross (Christian)
The Red Cross isn't Christian.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #354 on: 27/02/2020 08:50:07 »
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One word answer - propaganda.
And that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed the same way.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #355 on: 27/02/2020 16:09:39 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/02/2020 08:49:09
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One is the Red Cross (Christian)
The Red Cross isn't Christian.

Oh! Really!
https://christianheritagefellowship.com/the-christian-origin-of-the-red-cross
Like so many institutions, organizations, and benevolent agencies, the Red Cross had its origin in the Christian Faith. As noted below in the brief thumbnail sketch, the Christian faith of banker and businessman, Henry Dunant, was the impetus behind the compassion that has been and continues to be extended to millions around the world.
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #356 on: 27/02/2020 16:11:03 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/02/2020 08:50:07
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One word answer - propaganda.
And that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed the same way.

Not worth further debate, even to respond to this.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #357 on: 27/02/2020 16:18:35 »
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 16:09:39
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/02/2020 08:49:09
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One is the Red Cross (Christian)
The Red Cross isn't Christian.

Oh! Really!
https://christianheritagefellowship.com/the-christian-origin-of-the-red-cross
Like so many institutions, organizations, and benevolent agencies, the Red Cross had its origin in the Christian Faith. As noted below in the brief thumbnail sketch, the Christian faith of banker and businessman, Henry Dunant, was the impetus behind the compassion that has been and continues to be extended to millions around the world.

LOL
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One word answer - propaganda.


Did you really think that presenting christianheritagefellowship as an independent source was going to fly on a science page?

However, if you look at what the Red Cross actually say they stand for here
https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/what-we-stand-for
You get this
Impartiality
The Movement makes no discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.

It endeavours to relieve the suffering of individuals, being guided solely by their needs, and to give priority to the most urgent cases of distress.

The fact that the bloke who founded it went to church on Sunday, rather than Saturday does not make it a Christian movement.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #358 on: 27/02/2020 16:19:04 »
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 16:11:03
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/02/2020 08:50:07
Quote from: CliveG on 27/02/2020 05:01:33
One word answer - propaganda.
And that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed the same way.

Not worth further debate, even to respond to this.
So, you accept tat I'm right and there's no reason to suppose that it is proaganda?
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Offline CliveG

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Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #359 on: 27/02/2020 16:25:39 »
Note a couple of cases that recovered have again tested positive. Uh oh.

I doubt it is a mutation this early in the game but with the mutant enhancing properties of cell microwave it just might be.

And the virus spreading in people without symptoms, and then something triggers the sudden growth in person.

How about if the virus is resident and spread without symptoms and then is triggered by exposure to cell phone radiation. Is my sci-fi so irrational and unbelievable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andromeda_Strain_(film)
Meanwhile, the team realizes that the alien microbe would thrive on the energy of a nuclear explosion and would consequently be transformed into a supercolony that could destroy all life on Earth.
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