[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on Today at 06:49:57

    The manual is worth reading.

The grown ups would recognise that the manual is not likely to say [snip]

And you are how old? 

[Bored chemist]

Quote from: CliveG on Today at 06:49:57

    The manual is worth reading.

The grown ups would recognise that the manual is not likely to say [snip]

And you are how old? 

Old enough to recognise that an instruction manual, produced by the manufacturer, is not going to be an independent viewpoint.

I had to file a condonation which was not accepted by a new judge who said that he did not believe that one company had lied.  They showed a graph of daily consumption which was zero for the 36 hours I claimed (with meter evidence) that it was on. I said the graph was false because it showed a test period of two hours consuming 120% of any other previous daily 24 hour consumption. The judge based his decision on the company being a reputable company. They were not a public brand - just a meter reading company for the telcos. He totally ignored my evidence.

He may have ignored your evidence.
Or he may have followed the established legal viewpoint that, if it's one person's word against another, that doesn't prove guilt.

I do not make decisions based on faith in anything.

Yes you do

At 45 years I softened and leaned toward a belief in God. Given the personal experiences of the last few years and those in my life I have chosen to believe in God

It's entirely possible- even likely- that your country's legal system is as corrupt as you say it is.

That has no bearing on the influence of radio waves from cell phone towers on people's health.

Second there must be my own experience and not that of some-one else.

So, there's absolutely no point in you posting here.

Why not stop?

[evan_au]

I know when it's bad her dimmer light flickers a lot too

This is due to countries using "ripple control" on the mains line to control off-peak devices.
In those countries, the ripples are injected multiple times throughout the day, mainly near the transition from peak to off-peak periods.

However, this is due to frequencies in the tens to hundreds of Hertz, not GigaHertz (billions of Hertz).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_management#Ripple_control

I said the graph was false because it showed a test period of two hours consuming 120% of any other previous daily 24 hour consumption.

Can you clarify this statement?
Are you talking about power (eg kW) or energy (eg kWh)?

Are you saying that:
- the energy consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the energy consumed in a typical 24 hour period?
- Or (more likely IMHO), that the average power consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the average power consumed in a typical 24 hour period?
- Or even that the average power consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the maximum power consumed in a typical 24 hour period?

If the base station has been turned off for days or weeks, then it would need to recharge its batteries, which can lead to higher power consumption than you would see in a 24-hour period with continual power supply.

The judge based his decision on the company being a reputable company. They were not a public brand - just a meter reading company for the telcos.

A metering company using an electronic meter with (say) 15 minute measurement intervals is a good way to track power consumption.
It helps if they are reputable and (preferably) independent.

[alancalverd]

he Bioinitiative color charts shows that 100 femtowatts/sqcm can cause genetic problems at resonant frequencies and 5 picowatts/sqcm can change growth rates in yeast cells.So far this means life is sensitive to certain microwave frequencies but can adapt although it can stress an organism.

No, it means that single cells in vitro may exhibit electromagnetic resonances.  Not sure how you measure femtowatts in the presence of everyday noise.

[evan_au]

Do electrosensitive people have any problem with the CMBR which I believe has a mean frequency about 10 times higher than that used for 5G?

I took this to be a joke, rather than a serious threat to health.

It's practically impossible to measure the impact of radiation with an effective black-body temperature of 2.7K, in the presence of normal body temperature (300K).

[Bored chemist]

What's the effective BB temp of a phone mast?

[evan_au]

What's the effective BB temp of a phone mast?

It has a spectrum quite unlike a black body...

[Bored chemist]

What's the effective BB temp of a phone mast?

It has a spectrum quite unlike a black body...

I know that (said the spectroscopist).
There are a few ways of looking at it.
The tower emits at roughly a tenth of the frequency which indicates roughly  a tenth of the temperature.
Or the tower emits over a range of frequencies, and you can look at the highest and lowest (and their intensities), then look at the ratio then fit it to a Boltzmann distribution.

How much power do humans emit as microwaves?

[Kryptid]

How much power do humans emit as microwaves?

This might help answer that question: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/radfrac.html

I used data from this Wikipedia page to fill in the variables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#Human-body_emission

Unfortunately, the calculator seemed to predict a power ten times what is expected. So I reduced the surface area by a factor of ten to get the right answer. If microwaves range from about 1 millimeter to 1 meter in wavelength, then the power of microwaves emitted by the human body appears to be 1.55 x 10^-2 watts.

[CliveG]

I know when it's bad her dimmer light flickers a lot too

This is due to countries using "ripple control" on the mains line to control off-peak devices.
In those countries, the ripples are injected multiple times throughout the day, mainly near the transition from peak to off-peak periods.

However, this is due to frequencies in the tens to hundreds of Hertz, not GigaHertz (billions of Hertz).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_management#Ripple_control

I said the graph was false because it showed a test period of two hours consuming 120% of any other previous daily 24 hour consumption.

Can you clarify this statement?
Are you talking about power (eg kW) or energy (eg kWh)?

Are you saying that:
- the energy consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the energy consumed in a typical 24 hour period?
- Or (more likely IMHO), that the average power consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the average power consumed in a typical 24 hour period?
- Or even that the average power consumed in 2 hours was 20% more than the maximum power consumed in a typical 24 hour period?

If the base station has been turned off for days or weeks, then it would need to recharge its batteries, which can lead to higher power consumption than you would see in a 24-hour period with continual power supply.

The judge based his decision on the company being a reputable company. They were not a public brand - just a meter reading company for the telcos.

A metering company using an electronic meter with (say) 15 minute measurement intervals is a good way to track power consumption.
It helps if they are reputable and (preferably) independent.

I agree that the flickering is unlikely to be due to the radiation. Having worked and designed such circuits I can also say that it is likely due to noise ( I think SA tried ripple control and abandoned it) on the mains supply. Could the tower be injecting into the mains either by radiation or by the towers power supply? Not impossible.

The tower was powered on for about an hour and a half. The batteries powered it for about 20-30 minutes more. So the batteries draw power at about 1/4 to 1/3 of the mast power. The batteries charged while powered on and then they discharged to power the mast for a little longer.

So I am saying that they presented a bar graph of daily energy consumption and claimed that the two hours powered on (which included the energy to charge the batteries and run for a little longer) was 20% more than any other normal day. This is impossible. But what do some judges know - or even care.

In fact it just made the point even more clear - the judiciary in SA will side with large Corporates irrespective of the law or the facts. Do you think that such unethical Corporates are going to tell people the truth about cell MW harm?

[CliveG]

Do electrosensitive people have any problem with the CMBR which I believe has a mean frequency about 10 times higher than that used for 5G?

I took this to be a joke, rather than a serious threat to health.

It's practically impossible to measure the impact of radiation with an effective black-body temperature of 2.7K, in the presence of normal body temperature (300K).

I did too. But I found that researching the numbers was interesting. And I found some other articles about EHS so it was not a waste of time. Now we have MW from humans being debated. We are not black bodies as far as radiation goes. The radiation is mostly infrared.

However, we live in a sea of photons given off by many sources. Living creatures have adapted to the natural (background) radiation which will cause some disruption and some mutation. But it is negligible compared to man-made radiation and life will never adapt - just age, wither and die.

It gives one more answer to the Fermi Paradox. Why no intelligent life has been detected? Because they killed themselves with Cell MW radiation before they realized it was so damaging!

[alancalverd]

Because what we would recognise as intelligent life would have to
(a) be very similar to
(b) just one of millions of species that have evolved on one
(c) Goldilocks planet within a window of
(d) 100 years out of 13.5 billion in
(e) a region of space that we just happen to be looking at and have
(f) decided that generating huge quantities of coded electromagnetic radiation is a good idea, then
(g) pointed it in our direction
(h) sometime between 4.2 and 13.5 billion years ago for
(I) just long enough for us to detect it, on the assumption
(j ) that we will eventually exist
(k) and be just like them and that
(l) they will still be around between 8.4  and 27 billion years hence to receive an answer and that
(m) we have developed a compatible technology and
(n) worked out where to point it to intercept their trajectory in 4.2 - 13,500,000,000 years' time.

Having estimated  and multiplied all the probabilities together, the Klingons decided the money would be better spent on beer.

That said, there are various swarming terrestrial species with population cycles of the order of 5 - 10 years, locusts being among the most prolific. They are clearly in touch with their mates orbiting Proxima Centauri, telepathically synchronised to devastate each others' planet in turn. In the event of overgrazing, they will fly to the other planet and wait to recolonise Earth. How do they get there? Easy. If the Nazis could build V2 rockets with slave labor in underground tunnels, surely a really intelligent species can employ termites to build a rocket capable of taking a few breeding locusts to Earth2?

Or, in the words of Tony Hancock's radio ham "Pawn to queen's rook four..... Is it still raining in Tokyo?..... G'day Bruce, love to Sheila... Come in, mayday....." 

[Bored chemist]

Do you think that such unethical Corporates are going to tell people the truth about cell MW harm?

I'm glad you have realised that companies exist to make money by selling "products".
Now please apply this new-found understanding to the instruction manual for a meter.

It is, at the least, reasonable to question data coming from corporations who have vested interests.

That's why respected journals like the BMJ require a declaration of interests from authors.
So, when you read something in a science journal (rather than, for example, enclosed with a product you bought), you can have  much greater faith in it being accurate.

[Bored chemist]

We are not black bodies as far as radiation goes.

We are, across the microwave range, pretty close being lack body radiators, and at the wavelengths of interest we are even more close to "black body" radiators because of this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_law_of_thermal_radiation

[Bored chemist]

But it is negligible compared to man-made radiation and life will never adapt - just age, wither and die.

How many times must I ask you to stop begging the question?

[chris]

We're getting a lot of people enquiring about 5G networks and health. Some cite claims regarding impacts of the relevant wavelengths on plants and animals. Is there any such data?

[evan_au]

We're getting a lot of people enquiring about 5G networks and health.

International Russian TV and their US branch office have been stoking fears of 5G.
- Meanwhile, the Russian President is promoting 5G.

We have had protests in Australia that some suburbs don't want 5G.

See: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/12/science/5g-phone-safety-health-russia.html

a large federal study showed that 2G signals could produce brain cancer in male rats. But officials discounted a direct link to humans, saying people received smaller doses.

This statement from the New York Times article made me smile.
US rats must be more technologically savvy than our local rats - I've never seen a local one using a mobile phone...

[CliveG]

Because what we would recognise as intelligent life would have to
(a) be very similar to
(b) just one of millions of species that have evolved on one
(c) Goldilocks planet within a window of
(d) 100 years out of 13.5 billion in
(e) a region of space that we just happen to be looking at and have
(f) decided that generating huge quantities of coded electromagnetic radiation is a good idea, then
(g) pointed it in our direction
(h) sometime between 4.2 and 13.5 billion years ago for
(I) just long enough for us to detect it, on the assumption
(j ) that we will eventually exist
(k) and be just like them and that
(l) they will still be around between 8.4  and 27 billion years hence to receive an answer and that
(m) we have developed a compatible technology and
(n) worked out where to point it to intercept their trajectory in 4.2 - 13,500,000,000 years' time.

Having estimated  and multiplied all the probabilities together, the Klingons decided the money would be better spent on beer.

That said, there are various swarming terrestrial species with population cycles of the order of 5 - 10 years, locusts being among the most prolific. They are clearly in touch with their mates orbiting Proxima Centauri, telepathically synchronised to devastate each others' planet in turn. In the event of overgrazing, they will fly to the other planet and wait to recolonise Earth. How do they get there? Easy. If the Nazis could build V2 rockets with slave labor in underground tunnels, surely a really intelligent species can employ termites to build a rocket capable of taking a few breeding locusts to Earth2?

Or, in the words of Tony Hancock's radio ham "Pawn to queen's rook four..... Is it still raining in Tokyo?..... G'day Bruce, love to Sheila... Come in, mayday....."

Like your reply and am aware of the other answers to Fermi's paradox.
But... the exponential rate of increase of technology in a species as advanced as ours would populate not only its own galaxy but many others in a short time. Earth is a young planet by comparison so other advanced aliens would be teeming with life all over and broadcasting to each other on a scale that we would easily detect.

And... it has not happened.

One of the theories is that advanced civilizations terminate themselves. There are two characteristics that have spurred the technological success of humankind - namely war and profit. (the Klingon values your mention) Those are likely to be mankind's down fall as well. I just add cell MW as one.

-The Amazon is burning
-The Arctic’s on fire
-The Coral Reefs are dying
-Ecosystems are crashing
-The oceans are boiling
-Emissions are accelerating
-Fertile soil is disappearing
-Insects are vanishing
Only when the last tree has withered
The last fish caught
The last river poisoned
Will we realize we cannot eat money

I will soon move on to the cellular disruption that causes reduced immune systems, autism, epilepsy, ADHD, dementia, accelerating aging in addition to the latent and final cancers.

[alancalverd]

Years back, I took part in a civil defence exercise  modelling the day after World War 3. Lots of cunning coded messages exchanged through CB radio. Of course anyone who had a functioning radio and was fit and safe enough to use it, probably had other assets, so the moment you broke radio silence you became a target for predators. We quickly learned that the secret of survival is not to broadcast your survival. It is reasonable to assume that other civilisations have reached the same conclusion, and we know that governments monitor our personal phone calls and politicians pay geeks to monitor anything you broadcast on antisocial media, so the threat posed by your smartphone to your life and liberty is a lot more immediate than cancer. 

In short, don't expect to hear from any alien life form.

[Bored chemist]

I will soon move on to the cellular disruption that causes reduced immune systems, autism, epilepsy, ADHD, dementia, accelerating aging in addition to the latent and final cancers.

Are you moving on because you accept that you have no sound evidence for the current claims?
In the interest of science, perhaps I should nip one of those claims in the bud.
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/09/22/autism-increase-mystery-solved-no-its-not-vaccines-gmos-glyphosate-or-organic-foods/

Fundamentally, what you need to do is plot average lifespan vs mobile phone use over the last 20 or 30 years.