[pensador (OP)]

This topic is about where is consciousness is located. I was showing some examples of how the projection factor of the unconscious mind works. The unconscious mind can project content, like an overlay onto reality. What we then see is not 100% reality, but reality superimposed by the projection. It does not have to be a visual or audio overlay but it most often an emotional overlay.

This is all very philosophical. Do you agree with the links in the OP, in that the consciousness may exist outside the brain, independent of the brain. The brain simply sensing the consciousness.

I was hoping for a strong argument against the links. Does anyone have a strong argument for the case for consciousness existing outside the brain, independent of the brain?

[Bored chemist]

This is more common to the left since emotional projection is very important and will be blindly followed.

Why do you keep saying  stuff that's wrong?
Don't you realise this is a science page and people will call you out on it?
Why, basically, do you choose to support the liar?

[Bored chemist]

Confidence men and women promise you the world

"Drain the swamp" "get brexit done".

[Bored chemist]

.Many people are disappointed after the election since their fantasy projection ends when hard reality takes over.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-obamacare-trump-voter-20170224-story.html

[pensador (OP)]

Where is the consciousness located ?

The following might appeal to pantheists, buddhists hindus, or newagers perhaps and maybe even scientists.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain
"Hence, in Fenwick’s view, the brain does not create or produce consciousness; rather, it filters it. As odd as this idea might seem at first, there are some analogies that bring the concept into sharper focus. For example, the eye filters and interprets only a very small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum and the ear registers only a narrow range of sonic frequencies. Similarly, according to Fenwick, the brain filters and perceives only a tiny part of the cosmos’ intrinsic “consciousness.”
Fenwick is not a physicist, so I dredged the following link, the mind of wigners friend which supports the Fenwicks theory.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23040667?read-now=1&seq=1
The key points central to the article are
"A. My body with its internal nervous system(explored to any future degree of physiological completeness) functions as a pure mechanism according to the laws of nature. Further more quantum mechanics is the ultimate basis of the mechanism.

B. I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

Would any one like to comment, where is your consciousness? what is it?
[/quote

Just a reminder on what the thread is about since, it appears to have been hijacked, by some one very bored

[puppypower]

Let me show another example of projection, based on events in the news. If you look at the reaction to the Corona Virus, and the global shut down, one would expect this to be worse disease in the world of all times.  The world has never reacted and acted like this before.

If we separate ourselves from our emotions; Mr Spock with cold logic, ten times as many people have died of the flu this year than the Corona Virus. There are other diseases such as heart disease that claim even more lives than the flu each year. Yet, Corona has been given the status and resources as the worse of the worse, for all times. Something is not adding up in terms of the hard data,

The question becomes, why are "we" overreacting to the lessor of evils, even with conflicting data, from hard science,for  sickness and mortality? It has to do with a group projection of fear. This projection of fear, appears to be outside of ourselves, floating in the air like the angel of death. It adds a wild card that can override common sense.

Even scientists, who we assume are rational, will try to rationalize their fear, and will ignore all sense of proportions based on hard data for other diseases. This can also be due to a windfall of resources clouding common sense. If we die of the flu, so what, there is no angel of death. But if you die of Corona, which is 10 times less likley, that makes you a hero for just facing hew angel of death eye to eye. 

This collective projection demonstration, driven by propaganda from by both side of the political spectrum, shows how strong unconscious projections can become, if it reinforced by herd think. In this case we have global herd think. You will not be able to convince most people that this exaggerated evil is partially inside of themselves. Proportional data will not sink into their minds to quantify the reality evil, even with people who are supposed to be rational based on occupation.

Projection can be a useful investigation tool, if properly investigated. The unconscious can map out its own inner reality through projection. Many of the worlds religions have excellent maps. Some projection bones are easier for the herd to chew, since a solution is  there for common sense, if you can separate reason from projection.

The projection will be minimized if you can accept the reality of the Corona virus, but in the proper proportion to the hard reality of other things, that can also harm you. If your reaction remains  exaggerated and disproportional to other data, you are too unconscious of the collective projection to reason.

[Bored chemist]

Let me show another example of projection, based on events in the news. If you look at the reaction to the Corona Virus, and the global shut down, one would expect this to be worse disease in the world of all times.  The world has never reacted and acted like this before.

If we separate ourselves from our emotions; Mr Spock with cold logic, ten times as many people have died of the flu this year than the Corona Virus. There are other diseases such as heart disease that claim even more lives than the flu each year. Yet, Corona has been given the status and resources as the worse of the worse, for all times. Something is not adding up in terms of the hard data,

The question becomes, why are "we" overreacting to the lessor of evils, even with conflicting data, from hard science,for  sickness and mortality? It has to do with a group projection of fear. This projection of fear, appears to be outside of ourselves, floating in the air like the angel of death. It adds a wild card that can override common sense.

Even scientists, who we assume are rational, will try to rationalize their fear, and will ignore all sense of proportions based on hard data for other diseases. This can also be due to a windfall of resources clouding common sense. If we die of the flu, so what, there is no angel of death. But if you die of Corona, which is 10 times less likley, that makes you a hero for just facing hew angel of death eye to eye. 

This collective projection demonstration, driven by propaganda from by both side of the political spectrum, shows how strong unconscious projections can become, if it reinforced by herd think. In this case we have global herd think. You will not be able to convince most people that this exaggerated evil is partially inside of themselves. Proportional data will not sink into their minds to quantify the reality evil, even with people who are supposed to be rational based on occupation.

Projection can be a useful investigation tool, if properly investigated. The unconscious can map out its own inner reality through projection. Many of the worlds religions have excellent maps. Some projection bones are easier for the herd to chew, since a solution is  there for common sense, if you can separate reason from projection.

The projection will be minimized if you can accept the reality of the Corona virus, but in the proper proportion to the hard reality of other things, that can also harm you. If your reaction remains  exaggerated and disproportional to other data, you are too unconscious of the collective projection to reason.

Must be bored; he forgot to mention the topic.

[pensador (OP)]

Must be bored; he forgot to mention the topic.

Its official, the question posed in the op has been hijacked.

Even thebox gave better responses, what happened to him. 

[Bored chemist]

I was hoping that somehow I could find a better argument against either paper I posted.

I did point out that it was wrong.

More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

But the fact remains that the question posed in the title is unanswerable.

[pensador (OP)]

The article in the OP is suggesting the brain is where the consciousness manifests from a universal consciousness, the brain just filters out part of the universal consciousness, like an eye only detects part of the visible spectrum.

Without any way to test that, there's no way to know whether it's true or not.

But the fact remains that the question posed in the title is unanswerable.

In the absence of any kind of scientific proof, for the consciousness being outside the body, I dredged this utube on reincarnation, whereby some children claim to have memories of past lives. If the cases discussed here are not of child actors, or con merchants then, here is your proof or not as the case may be.

The OP still stands and as you both say, without proof there is no way to test it.

[Bored chemist]

. If the cases discussed here are not of child actors, or con merchants then,...

... they are evidence that some kids have vivid imaginations.
Which we already knew.

Did you need a video to tell you that?

[pensador (OP)]

. If the cases discussed here are not of child actors, or con merchants then,...

... they are evidence that some kids have vivid imaginations.
Which we already knew.

Did you need a video to tell you that?

You watched it then

Perhaps also the kids parents are also hopeful their child is a bit special Disbelief without proof is not an argument. The indian girl, that apparently found her original family, and seemed to be accepted by them as the reincarnation of their son/brother was quite intriguing assuming they were not all actors or deluded, which is a possibility.

As the OP stands it has no "scientific" evidence to support it, nor has anyone put forward an argument against it, especially the jstor link I posted in the OP.

For an agnostic the conclusion of this thread must be inconclusive. If you are an atheist, complete disbelief is the safest conclusion, if you are a Hindu, belief is a likely outcome.

Up to present you opt for disbelief without reason against the JSTOR paper.

What is wrong with the papers logic ?

[Bored chemist]

You watched it then

No.

nor has anyone put forward an argument against it, especially the jstor link I posted in the OP.

...
here we go again..

I did point out that it was wrong.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/03/2020 14:12:57
More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

[pensador (OP)]

You watched it then

No.

nor has anyone put forward an argument against it, especially the jstor link I posted in the OP.

...
here we go again..

I did point out that it was wrong.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/03/2020 14:12:57
More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

Would I be correct in thinking you never read the JSTOR paper either.   

[puppypower]

If you believe in evolution, and that we evolved from previous versions of other animals, than some of that past memory is still engraved in the DNA. In other words, there are basic cellular similarities between all animals and even bacteria; mitochondria, which means some genes are conserved for long periods of time.

Theoretically, since each neurons contains our entire human DNA ,and human DNA has traces of past animal DNA, the link between neuron DNA and synaptic based memory should allow the inner self to periodically extrapolate and manifest past DNA connections via the frontal lobe; deja vu.

Reincarnation was the original version of generic theory. Like genetic theory it implies a continuity of life from past to the present and to the future. Within this continuity of life, is a continuity of consciousness, which itself has built upon previous versions of consciousness, We now use this schema to describe the DNA. If you had  great great grandfather who was a drunk some assumer this genetic connection can be transmitted to the future. We can take it one step further, and say the inner self is wired into this long term memory schema since the inner self is nature itself .

The brain is a neuron grid of synapses and ionic potentials. This ionic grid becomes the external environment around the neurons. The DNA is induced to respond based on external inputs. The inner self appears to be centralized in the core of the brain or the thalamus region. The thalamus is the most wired part of the brain for both input and output, and therefore it has the strongest signal amplifications. If connections and amplifications are properly made, this is the best place to induce and transmit deja vu. 

For memory to be maintained as fixed structures in the brain, axons and dendrites,structural parts of individual neuron cells, have to be maintained. These constant cellular structures requires the DNA be induced into a cooperative and even redundant state, based on the memory data. To go from there to ancient genes and back, is not a big deal to the inner self. It is all based on water equilibria and short term amplifications around a base configuration that has a material capacitance.

Memory formed from our sensory systems are not at lowest potential. They are induced at higher potential. Higher potential makes memory fire and allows the memory to remain conscious. Low potential neurons do not fire. Although memory begins ay higher potential, the brain is nevertheless trying to lower potential by forward integrating memory into lower and lower potential. The details get lost, but we gain wisdom and common sense from the forward integration. This type of memory is  more situational based. New memory of new situations, will once again  increase potential, which lowers back into the memories of wisdom. The exothermic output becomes conscious as a solution to the problem.

Reincarnation, although often about the past, is also about the future. To align the future with nature and the DNA, we need to align with the past DNA. The inner self may align us with ourselves and history, as a way to move the individual in the proper line; induce a deja vu. This is useful especially if heart felt.

The operating system of the brain is the last frontier, but neither science or religion wish to deal with it. It is both science and religion or past, present and future. However, it requires a different approach where we become the scientists and experiment; conscious of our inner self.

[Bored chemist]

Would I be correct in thinking you never read the JSTOR paper either.   

No, It's obvious that I read it.
That's why I was able to point out that you didn't get the quote right.

It's also why I was able to show that it was, in fact, wrong.

Since you seem to have forgotten, here it is again.

Is this not the response of an atheist, a scientist might have commented where the second paper from jstor I posted is barking mad.

OK, it says "I am aware, by incontrovertible direct evidence, of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."
where you wrote
"I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

Would I be right in thinking that you don't actually care about the facts her and tried to discredit me?

How's that working out for you?

[Kryptid]

Theoretically, since each neurons contains our entire human DNA ,and human DNA has traces of past animal DNA, the link between neuron DNA and synaptic based memory should allow the inner self to periodically extrapolate and manifest past DNA connections via the frontal lobe; deja vu.

That isn't remotely how memory storage in networks of neurons works.

[hamdani yusuf]

The video is titled "The Self - A Thought Experiment".

Spoiler: show

An omniscient conscious being doesn't have subjectivity.

Professor Patrick Stokes of Deakin University gives a thought experiment from Thomas Nagel. This comes from a talk given at the Ethics Centre from an episode of the podcast The Philosopher's Zone.

[pensador (OP)]

The video is titled "The Self - A Thought Experiment".

Spoiler: show

An omniscient conscious being doesn't have subjectivity.

Professor Patrick Stokes of Deakin University gives a thought experiment from Thomas Nagel. This comes from a talk given at the Ethics Centre from an episode of the podcast The Philosopher's Zone.

Thanks for the link

The video appears to support the questions raised in the OP. It is however philosophical and offers no proof, which is a problem already pointed out. 

What kind of proof would be required to prove the conjecture in the OP?

Ghosties apparently dont hang around for scientists to probe them with instruments, to test what they might be made of
If they do exist they might be made of undetectium, which instruments havent been built to detect yet, for various reasons.
Various dubious photographs have been made of apparitions, and ghost stories abound. The following highly reliable report from the daily mail  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054842/Enfield-Poltergeist-The-amazing-story-11-year-old-North-London-girl-levitated-bed.html Might be regarded as evidence for Poltergeists.

If it was halloween,    https://theconversation.com/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-poltergeists-just-in-time-for-halloween-85690

Reliable evidence or arguments against the OP seem to be very weak.

[hamdani yusuf]

Similarly, according to Fenwick, the brain filters and perceives only a tiny part of the cosmos’ intrinsic “consciousness.”

If I take a glass and dip it into an ocean, can it be said that I filter ocean water?