[evan_au]

I assume the inactive virus vaccines will prevent transmission one of  the main vaccine functions.

The early monkey tests of the Oxford-Zeneca vaccine showed that it reduced infection, but did not totally block transmission.
- So even an inactive virus vaccine does not prevent transmission

Unfortunately, statistics on transmission are harder to collect than statistics on disease, so they require a longer trial.
- You can expect that if you do catch the disease, that you will shed some virus, which other people may catch.
- So high efficacy = low chance of catching the virus means that you will probably transmit it less.
- Reduction in severe disease probably means lower viral load = you will probably transmit it less.
- Some early figures coming in do suggest that all the vaccines (including the mRNA ones) do reduce transmission.

sinovac is now authorized.

As of 16th January, Sinovac is not yet authorized - they are still in Phase III trials.
- They applied for emergency use authorization in Brazil on 7th January, but they are still waiting for the efficacy documentation that is needed for approval.
- Trials of Sinovac in different countries have reported wildly different results - these need to be rationalized before regulatory authorities would really trust the results.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac

[Bored chemist]

I already did Dr Fauci is one he recently stated that the vacine will not stop transmission vaccinated people will still need to wear masks.

That does not answer the point raised, does it?
You keep doing this; posting a red herring and pretending that you have addressed a point,.
You said it's not a vaccine, but a treatment. Kryptid called you out on that

Please give us your source for this information.

And you said something irrelevant about how a vaccine isn't an instant cure for everything.

Well, it's not a treatment, it's a vaccine.
Because it can't be 100% effective, and because it will take some time to have an effect, there will still be a need for masks.
That's what Dr Fauci is talking about.

So, once again.
You said

I seen many doctors saying that the mRNA isnt a vaccine but a treatment,

Prove it.

[Bored chemist]

Hypotheses: China is making an effective inactive virus vaccine

Not really.
Their vaccine is about 50% effective.
That's good, but not good enough.
The R for the virus, if you take no control measures is about 3.
If the vaccine is 50% effective then, simplistically, you drop R to 1.5.
That's till above 1 so you still have an epidemic.

So, your premise is wrong.

Ergo of this virus was released intentionally

Non seq.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise (and the premise was wrong anyway).

China most likley isnt responsible as some like to accuse them of being.

Who would say such a thing?

Oh, yes, I remember now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=32&v=9DhV-1LDmp4&feature=youtu.be

The west by contrast does not have a giant control grid

Yes it does. The shorthand version is  "billionaires who own all the media" though in detail it's more complex than that.

seeks to use the current pandemic to introduce one,

You would need to put forward evidence that:
1 There is no such grid (though in fact there is)
2 That they want to produce one (which they don't need to do)
3 That the virus actually helps them (which it doesn't because it's affecting economic productivity and also increasing awareness of the importance of social healthcare)
4 "they are not creating an effective vaccine" even though, they have a vaccine that's a whole lot better than the Chinese one which you describe as "effective"

How do we test this hypothesis?

It's not an hypothesis.
An hypothesis needs to be internally consistent.
It's a rant.
Jolly, you need to take a good look at yourself and think about the fact that all your ideas fall apart when someone looks carefully at them.

[Kryptid]

I already did Dr Fauci is one he recently stated that the vacine will not stop transmission vaccinated people will still need to wear masks. The association American frontline Doctors is another. There are more.

What I'm asking for is evidence that the mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines.

How do we test this hypothesis?

Find some compelling evidence for it, like official documentation. Otherwise, it's just a conspiracy theory.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

I assume the inactive virus vaccines will prevent transmission one of  the main vaccine functions.

The early monkey tests of the Oxford-Zeneca vaccine

Are you sure I thought it was a non replicating viral vector vaccine?

showed that it reduced infection, but did not totally block transmission.
- So even an inactive virus vaccine does not prevent transmission

One example if true, is still only one example.

Unfortunately, statistics on transmission are harder to collect than statistics on disease, so they require a longer trial.
- You can expect that if you do catch the disease, that you will shed some virus, which other people may catch.

Sure there might always be some shedding but you should assume the increased immunity would seriously reduce viral loads and seriously shorten length of contagiousness.

- So high efficacy = low chance of catching the virus means that you will probably transmit it less.
- Reduction in severe disease probably means lower viral load = you will probably transmit it less.
- Some early figures coming in do suggest that all the vaccines (including the mRNA ones) do reduce transmission.

sinovac is now authorized.

As of 16th January, Sinovac is not yet authorized - they are still in Phase III trials.

I heard they have already vaccinated 1.6 million people in China alone.

- They applied for emergency use authorization in Brazil on 7th January, but they are still waiting for the efficacy documentation that is needed for approval.
- Trials of Sinovac in different countries have reported wildly different results - these need to be rationalized before regulatory authorities would really trust the results.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoronaVac

Do you not have concerns about mRNA treatments?

[Jolly2 (OP)]

I already did Dr Fauci is one he recently stated that the vacine will not stop transmission vaccinated people will still need to wear masks. The association American frontline Doctors is another. There are more.

What I'm asking for is evidence that the mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines.

I've seen a few different doctors say that. As I already referenced the Association American Frontline Doctors claim it's not a vaccine in the normal sense. I'll find some others for you.


https://humansarefree.com/2021/01/mrna-covid-19-technology-is-not-a-vaccine.html


Dr David Martin
"This is not a vaccine. This is an mRNA packaged in a fat envelope, that is delivered to a cell.
It is a medical device designed to stimulate the human cell into becoming a pathogen creator."
https://humansarefree.com/2021/01/dr-david-martin-on-experimental-mrna-technology-this-is-not-a-vaccine-it-is-a-medical-device.html


Doctors for truth is another association calling on people to not take the mRNA treatment.
https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/doctors-around-the-world-issue-dire-warning-do-not-get-the-covid-vaccine/

[Bored chemist]

"This is not a vaccine. This is an mRNA packaged in a fat envelope, that is delivered to a cell.
It is a medical device designed to stimulate the human cell into becoming a pathogen creator."

That is exactly what all vaccines do.

It's a novel way of doing it, but it's still vaccination.

It's as if he thinks that anything except the use of vaccinia (cowpox) doesn't count.

It is not enough to find some doctor who will blindly say "it's not a vaccine" they have to explain why all the other doctors are wrong.

[evan_au]

I assume the inactive virus vaccines will prevent transmission.
The early monkey tests of the Oxford-Zeneca vaccine...

Are you sure I thought it was a non replicating viral vector vaccine?

The Oxford-Zeneca vaccine is a non-replicating chimpanzee adenovirus.
- This is an "inactive virus vaccine", because "inactive" means "non-replicating"
- There are many viruses, and many ways to inactivate them
- For Astra-Zeneca, I understand they deleted a gene which is essential for virus replication (so it can't replicate in a living person). They then supply that gene product in the factory, so they can mass-replicate the virus to mass-produce the vaccine.

Astra-Zeneca showed that it reduced infection, but did not totally block transmission.
- So even an inactive virus vaccine does not prevent transmission
One example if true, is still only one example.

You have provided zero evidence, and yet you still claim mRNA vaccines are less effective than any other vaccine.

The reality is, unless a vaccine totally blocks infection (ie 100% efficacy), then it will not totally block transmission.
- And no vaccine has 100% efficacy (although the measles vaccine is pretty good,  apparently - with R≈16, a measles vaccine needs to be good!).

Do you not have concerns about mRNA treatments?

Regardless of whether you call it a vaccine or a treatment, all vaccines are a form of treatment!

I would happily take any vaccine that had been approved by my national regulatory authority (the Therapeutic Goods Administration, TGA).
- They will approve any vaccine which shows both safety and efficacy in Phase III trials.
- The known risks of catching COVID-19 far outweigh the known risks from the vaccine.
- And if you don't get a vaccine, you probably will catch SARS-COV2 (eventually).

As a public health issue, I expect the vaccine will be free to Australian citizens & residents.
- There is a supply issue around which manufacturers the government can agree on a contract for manufacture, timetable for supply and payment (pending TGA approval).

I heard they have already vaccinated 1.6 million people in China alone.

And the Russians are doing mass vaccination with the Russian Sputnik vaccine....

They have not published the Phase III trial results.
- They have not been able to provide satisfactory Phase III trial results to regulatory authorities in other countries.
- This is unlike the Pfizer & Moderna mRNA vaccines (and the Astra Zeneca inactive virus vaccine), which have provided Phase III results, and have received regulatory approval in many countries

So is it a matter of:
- These are effective vaccines, but they just can't prove it, yet?
- or is it national pride, and it will be deployed anyway?
- or is it that even a low-effectiveness vaccine is better than nothing, if coupled with ongoing wearing of masks, social distancing, isolation of the aged, etc...

SInovac does not (yet) meet safety & efficacy criteria of your country, so if you want the sinovac vaccine, for now you will need to travel to China (and get in a queue that already has 1.4 billion people in it)...

[alancalverd]

To sum up the FACTS that have been WITHHELD by order of the Magi

All the vaccines are the product of Big Pharma apart for the ones that are produced by atheistic communists

All vacccinators are sadists paid by the enemies of Donald Trump, or his friends, to increase or decrease the population of dangerous leftists/rightists

COVID vaccines can reduce female fertility or make you pregnant with the offspring of Donald Trump, Kim Jong-un,
Michael Gove or aliens from Venus. Unless you are male in which case they will make you impotent or permanently erect and constantly ejaculating. 

Every dose contains a microchip (sponsored by Uber) which allows the police/your spouse/the Martians to track your every move on a quantum  supercomputer operated by Elvis on the dark side of the moon

Free-range organic vaccines are only available to the very rich idiots whose yachts are even now converging on Mustique with their concubine virgin goats.

You can't catch COVID if you have been baptised in the name of Jesus (other deities are available) or inhale fresh ferret urine.

Having thus evenhandedly and in the best Fox News / Daily Mail tradition aired every conceivable conspiracy, I can honestly say  that COVID can make you very ill indeed, and a vaccine can save your life. But who cares about science? It's so 18th century.

[Bored chemist]

Do you not have concerns about mRNA treatments?

Not nearly as many as I have about the virus.

[Kryptid]

https://humansarefree.com/2021/01/mrna-covid-19-technology-is-not-a-vaccine.html

This quote right here...

It is a medical device designed to stimulate the human cell into becoming a pathogen creator.

...shows that this Dr. David Martin doesn't know what he's talking about. The following article also hurts his credibility: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/new-plandemic-video-peddles-misinformation-conspiracies/

He (ridiculously) denies that COVID-19 can be transmitted through the air: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-masks/fact-check-research-papers-have-put-forward-evidence-for-airborne-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-idUSKBN29H2UO

So I'd look elsewhere for a credible source of information about COVID or the vaccines.

That "Humans Are Free" website itself looks like it's peddling conspiracy theories, so it should be avoided as a source of reputable information.

Doctors for truth is another association calling on people to not take the mRNA treatment.
https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/doctors-around-the-world-issue-dire-warning-do-not-get-the-covid-vaccine/

Could you please cite reputable sources? Conspiracy theory websites do not count.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

I assume the inactive virus vaccines will prevent transmission.
The early monkey tests of the Oxford-Zeneca vaccine...

Are you sure I thought it was a non replicating viral vector vaccine?

The Oxford-Zeneca vaccine is a non-replicating chimpanzee adenovirus.
- This is an "inactive virus vaccine", because "inactive" means "non-replicating"

Sorry Viral vector vaccine involves putting a gene for a viral protein into a different virus (one that will not cause illness but can replicate). Replication of the viral vector also produces copies of the viral protein, which triggers an immune response to that protein.
Non replicating involves that a viral gene is added to a different, non-replicating, virus and delivered to the vaccine recipient.

To claim as you did that non replicating viral vector vaccine is the same as inactivated virus vaccine is utterly incorret. So you are either unaware of the difference or being dishonest.

Non replicating viral vector vaccines has never before been authorised for use.

- There are many viruses, and many ways to inactivate them
- For Astra-Zeneca, I understand they deleted a gene which is essential for virus replication (so it can't replicate in a living person). They then supply that gene product in the factory, so they can mass-replicate the virus to mass-produce the vaccine.

No they add information to a viral package that cannot replicate.

Astra-Zeneca showed that it reduced infection, but did not totally block transmission.
- So even an inactive virus vaccine does not prevent transmission
One example if true, is still only one example.

You have provided zero evidence, and yet you still claim mRNA vaccines are less effective than any other vaccine.

Well you just argued inactivated virus vaccine won't prevent transmission because a completely different non replicating viral vector vaccine didnt. 

Apples wont because pears didnt, bad science.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

https://humansarefree.com/2021/01/mrna-covid-19-technology-is-not-a-vaccine.html

This quote right here...

It is a medical device designed to stimulate the human cell into becoming a pathogen creator.

...shows that this Dr. David Martin doesn't know what he's talking about. The following article also hurts his credibility: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/new-plandemic-video-peddles-misinformation-conspiracies/

He (ridiculously) denies that COVID-19 can be transmitted through the air: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-masks/fact-check-research-papers-have-put-forward-evidence-for-airborne-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-idUSKBN29H2UO

So I'd look elsewhere for a credible source of information about COVID or the vaccines.

That "Humans Are Free" website itself looks like it's peddling conspiracy theories, so it should be avoided as a source of reputable information.

Doctors for truth is another association calling on people to not take the mRNA treatment.
https://healthimpactnews.com/2020/doctors-around-the-world-issue-dire-warning-do-not-get-the-covid-vaccine/

Could you please cite reputable sources? Conspiracy theory websites do not count.

Unfortunately associations like American Frontline Doctors, Doctors for Truth. Are all being black listed and scrubbed from the internet.

Facebook and Twitter medical experts they are along with the main stream media are all in cooperation to remove any voices that critic the government narrative.

Until that changes doctors and their concerns are going to be hard to find.  Sadly money rules over science today, so speak out and risk your institution facing a financial backlash... bad time for science.

[evan_au]

They’ve literally injected this pathogenic part of the virus into every cell of the body

No, they literally inject the vaccine into your arm muscle.
- The vaccine is not a pathogen, so it cannot multiply to infect every cell in your body
- The vaccine cannot even multiply to infect  even every cell with an ACS-2 ACE-2 receptor, which is the target of SARS-COV2 virus. These receptors line your lungs and every blood vessel. So SARS-COV2 could affect every organ in your body.

… (the vaccine) can actually directly cause multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, Alzheimer’s disease … it can cause accelerated cancer … that’s what the expression of that piece of virus … has been known to do for decades.”

That "part of the virus" (the SARS-COV2 spike protein) has only been known for a bit over 1 year, so how could it's effects have been known for decades?

Diseases like those quoted take years to manifest themselves.
- But the first vaccine trials in humans were only 6 months ago.
- If someone from the trial group did come down with those conditions:
      - It would have been detected in the Phase 1/II/II trials, which have careful monitoring of all health outcomes for all the participants
      - Rather than jump to "the vaccine caused the disease", researchers would first compare the number of people with the disease in the vaccine arm vs placebo arm of the trial
      - Diagnoses of these conditions appearing in the couple of months after vaccination were probably undetected cases that had been getting worse for several years (indeed, decades) before the vaccination.

[Bored chemist]

To claim as you did that non replicating viral vector vaccine is the same as inactivated virus vaccine is utterly incorret.

Nobody made that claim.

Facebook and Twitter medical experts they are along with the main stream media are all in cooperation to remove any voices that critic the government narrative.

No, they are cooperating to remove sources of misinformation, such as people who claim the disease can't be spread through air.

Sadly money rules over science today

No.
Science makes money; lots of it.

(one that will not cause illness but can replicate).

How does that work?
How come replication of the virus i.e. infection by that virus isn't a disease?
That idea is absurd- as are many of your views.

These sorts of absurd view which cause harm to others are the reason why conspiracy theorists get blacklisted.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

They’ve literally injected this pathogenic part of the virus into every cell of the body

No, they literally inject the vaccine into your arm muscle.
- The vaccine is not a pathogen, so it cannot multiply to infect every cell in your body
- The vaccine cannot even multiply to infect  even every cell with an ACS-2 receptor, which is the target of SARS-COV2 virus. These receptors line your lungs and every blood vessel. So SARS-COV2 could affect every organ in your body.

Isnt that relative to the viral package? SARS cov2 proteins attack ace 2 but what if the viral package attacks a different receptor?

… (the vaccine) can actually directly cause multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, Alzheimer’s disease … it can cause accelerated cancer … that’s what the expression of that piece of virus … has been known to do for decades.”

That "part of the virus" (the SARS-COV2 spike protein) has only been known for a bit over 1 year, so how could it's effects have been known for decades?

Maybe they have access to other research you haven't seen.

Diseases like those quoted take years to manifest themselves.
- But the first vaccine trials in humans were only 6 months ago.
- If someone from the trial group did come down with those conditions:
      - It would have been detected in the Phase 1/II/II trials, which have careful monitoring of all health outcomes for all the participants

Phase 1 trails normally take 2 years, the phase 1 trails for the covid vaccine have taken 3 months.

Time for phase 2 trails normally  take is 2 to 3 years and the covid vaccine trials for phase 2 have taken less then 8 months.

Normal time scales for phase 3 trails is between 2 to 4 years and with the covid trails the phrase 2 and 3 have been combined together.

That's 11 months for a process that should be 9 years long.

I'm sure that is total sufficient to see the health effects the vaccine may cause. 14 people in Israel now have lost facial muscle motor function as part  of the side effects, we are only a few weeks in.

COVID-19: 13 in Israel suffer facial paralysis after
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/covid-19-13-in-israel-suffer-facial-paralysis-after-receiving-coronavirus-vaccine-details-here/ar-BB1cPiSl

They have literally conducted all phases of testing in less time then they should use to conduct phase 1.
And they are using experimental technologies... what could possibly go wrong

sinovac is now authorized.

As of 16th January, Sinovac is not yet authorized - they are still in Phase III trials.

Not true now authoritarised in China and in Brazil I believe in 2 other Asian countries also

[Jolly2 (OP)]

To claim as you did that non replicating viral vector vaccine is the same as inactivated virus vaccine is utterly incorret.

Nobody made that claim.

It was made here

[author=evan_au link=topic=81273.msg625196#msg625196 date=1610779449]

I assume the inactive virus vaccines will prevent transmission one of  the main vaccine functions.

The early monkey tests of the Oxford-Zeneca vaccine showed that it reduced infection, but did not totally block transmission.
- So even an inactive virus vaccine does not prevent transmission

That claim is expressly that the Oxford zenica a non replicating viral vector vaccine is, an inactive Vrius vaccine which it is not.

Facebook and Twitter medical experts they are along with the main stream media are all in cooperation to remove any voices that critic the government narrative.

No, they are cooperating to remove sources of misinformation, such as people who claim the disease can't be spread through air.

A claim made by the WHO at the begining of the pandemic. 

Oh it's the troll, no feeding

[alancalverd]

The only clear evidence we have of deliberate infection on a large scale was the UK government insisting on discharging infectious patients into unprotected nursing homes. Individuals who deliberately attempted or threatened to infect others have been prosecuted for assault - why not the government?

Not closing borders and schools, nor instituting strong quarantine measures when others did so,  could be regarded as ignorance, but to fail to take such action in the face of strong scientific and historical evidence is culpable negligence.

[Bored chemist]

Oh it's the troll, no feeding

Well stop trolling.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

The only clear evidence we have of deliberate infection on a large scale was the UK government insisting on discharging infectious patients into unprotected nursing homes. Individuals who deliberately attempted or threatened to infect others have been prosecuted for assault - why not the government?

Cuomo in New York sent infected old people into old peoples homes.

Certainly a good candidate.

Not closing borders and schools, nor instituting strong quarantine measures when others did so,  could be regarded as ignorance, but to fail to take such action in the face of strong scientific and historical evidence is culpable negligence.

Well it was clear in January covid was airborne it took the WHO until the End of March to announce that I beleive. Fauci admitted he lied about the effectiveness of Masks as did the British government, they justified lying because they said the needed masks for health workers yet, people could have made their own. FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU.

They are liars and proven so, trust is gone and rightly so.

And as China has now managed to create a traditional inactivated virus vaccine, we should stop all the experimental mRNA DNA and viral vector programs in my opinion and either buy from China or invite China to share the technology.
We are already seeing serious side effects from these experimental treatments.