Apple wins privacy row, and microbes dictate chocolate taste

Plus, our ancestors had preferred tools as far back as 3 million years ago...
22 August 2025
Presented by Chris Smith
Production by James Tytko, Rowan Berkley.

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In this edition of The Naked Scientists, Apple locked horns with the UK government who were demanding a security back door through the company’s encryption. What was the outcome? Also, scientists discover the secret to the tastiest chocolate - it’s all down to microbes. And, archaeologists uncover the earliest evidence yet of our ancestors using stone tools...

In this episode

Using an iPhone

UK backs down from controversial Apple 'backdoor' demands
Mark Gurman, Bloomberg News

The UK government has backed down on its controversial demands to be allowed access to the most secure customer data on Apple’s iCloud service, so says US spy chief Tulsi Gabbard. Apple offers users the option to protect their personal data including photos and so on with their Advanced Data Protection service, an encryption tool which excludes even the tech giant itself from being able to read the content. The Home Office in London had instructed Apple to build a so-called ‘backdoor’ into their service back in February on the grounds of security. This was met with staunch opposition from the corporation and privacy advocates. It was widely reported this week that Apple had “won” and the UK Government had backed down. But the story is a bit more nuanced than that. To explain more, here is technology editor at Bloomberg News, Mark Gurman…

Mark - So for years, Apple has offered this iCloud service, but one thing it didn't have was top-tier encryption for things like backups, for things like text messages stored in the cloud, for things like your reminders, your calendars, your voice memos, your notes, your web bookmarks. And so a few years ago, they rolled out a feature called ADP, or Advanced Data Protection, and they launched this pretty much globally. You turned on this feature and everything in your iCloud account was able to be encrypted.

James - You mentioned it's an opt-in service, and there must be a drawback to this extra security or everyone would have it. If you, for some reason, maybe forget your password, your data is harder to get back.

Mark - That's exactly right. The drawback is that it's a little tricky to set up. There are some compatibility issues. You need newer OSs, newer devices. And of course, you have the risk of what if you forget your passcode? You are a bit in trouble because Apple won't be able to unlock the account.

James - So what was it the UK government demanded back in February when this row all kicked off?

Mark - So the UK government demanded that Apple build a backdoor, which would allow them to go into user accounts and get data as needed, do investigations as needed. Apple refused to build a backdoor, but instead they removed Advanced Data Protection for users in the UK. So that turned off the highest levels of encryption. So they didn't build a backdoor, but they essentially left the door, as it was before, a little open. They left people in the UK less safe from intrusion, from hackers, and of course, from the government.

James - I suppose Apple would probably say, even if they wanted to build this backdoor, which it sounds like they don't want to, any cyber criminal worth their salt would probably store their files elsewhere anyway. And if a government can get in, perhaps a nefarious hacker could exploit the infrastructure set up to be able to do that.

Mark - That's exactly right. Apple didn't create the Advanced Data Protection feature to prevent governments from going into user accounts. This was created for far less nefarious purposes. This was created to prevent hackers or vulnerabilities or leaks and whatnot from user accounts. And they don't want to build that backdoor. They claim they can't build that backdoor and they would never build that backdoor. But the next best thing to building that backdoor is disabling that extra level of encryption. That leaves the opportunity there for both hackers, but of course, the governments to do what they want to do.

James - Apple sees privacy as kind of a key tenet of its products at the moment, doesn't it? Encryption as a concept now seems to have entered the public consciousness. And is that why they're so reticent to budge on issues like this?

Mark - For Apple, privacy is very core to how they develop all their products. They have a privacy engineering team, they have a privacy policy team, and they're involved in product development from the very beginning to understand the implications of features and how that could create privacy issues, right? Not only in certain countries, but on a global level. And for Apple, as they fall behind on other areas, they've hiked up their interest in privacy because it truly is a differentiator and something they found in their marketing campaigns to actually be a reason they can get people onto Apple products versus the competition.

James - What was the update we got this week over this row with the UK government?

Mark - So it's actually pretty nuanced. When the news first came out, the way it was digested is that Apple had won this back and forth with the UK. They also said there was involvement from JD Vance, the vice president under Trump in the US. And it was positioned as a victory, but it was only really a victory for the US, which really isn't the centre of attention here. This is a UK issue and nothing has changed in the UK. Apple never removed the Advanced Data Protection feature for American users. It has always continued to be available for American customers, people with United States-based Apple accounts. This news development only impacts the idea of the UK having a backdoor into Americans. The Advanced Data Protection feature is still unavailable for UK users. So the issue for British users continues.

James - Might it remain this way in this sort of deadlock for a long time?

Mark - I anticipate this deadlock will continue for the foreseeable future. Apple doesn't remove features lightly, and I don't anticipate that Apple would have removed that feature if they didn't expect this to be a multi-year, several month, maybe even indefinite deadlock between their privacy stance and the UK government. This is all covered by different acts that don't allow these things to be public. But my assumption is Apple's fighting the UK government in court about this locally in the UK. So for now, this issue has been solved for American users, but that was really never the point.

James - So we'll have to watch this space. Nevertheless, the news this week, some might interpret as a bit of a blow to the Home Office here in the UK. Is there a serious point here that they've been repelled quite effectively when trying to tell a tech company to do their bidding?

Mark - The Home Office has indeed been repelled, but at the same time, the UK continues to do what they want for the UK. From their perspective, that's a lot more important than being able to snoop on Americans' phones. It's amazing that the UK is not going to be able to snoop on American accounts anymore - very happy about that. But for users in England, they're still going to be facing this issue of not being able to have that top-tier encryption level.

Close-up of a dark chocolate bar.

Microbe secretions dictate the taste of chocolate
David Gopaulchan, Nottingham University

Chocophiles listen up! Because UK scientists say they’ve unlocked the secret to the tastiest chocolate. We make chocolate from cacao beans, which are the "seeds" inside cacao pods, which are themselves oblong shaped fruiting bodies, about the same size as an aubergine, that grow on the cacao trees cultivated, chiefly, in West Africa and South America. Previously the industry argued that different calibres and qualities of chocolate stemmed from different tree species or cultivars, and growing conditions. But, Nottingham University's David Gopaulchan argues, this isn't true. Much more significant, he's shown, is the effect of the microbes that colonise and ferment the beans when they are scraped out of their pods, surrounded by a mushy material called mucillage. He can recreate a range of different chocolates, indistinguishable to the refined palates of a panel of professional tasters, just by tweaking the microbes he adds to a batch of beans…

David - Cocoa beans are the raw material for producing chocolate. Depending on where the beans are grown, you can get different flavour profiles. For instance, beans from West Africa are usually very strong in chocolate flavours, while if you source beans from Latin America, they are usually filled with lots of fruity floral notes. It's pretty much like the wine industry. Depending on where it's produced, you could get different flavours. It's the same with the chocolate industry. The question we had was, why?

Chris - If you asked, and you used wine as an example, a wine grower that question, they would talk about terroir. They talk about things coming up from the soil, they talk about the environment the grapes are maturing and ripening in. So what do you think it is then with the cocoa and how have you sought to try and explore that?

David - We first went to Colombia. So depending on the locations, you can get different flavours. So we selected three farms in Colombia to study this phenomenon. We went to these farms to analyse the processing of cocoa. At these locations, the farmers would grow the trees, produce the fruit, harvest the beans and let it ferment. During this fermentation is where the magic happens. So we went about studying this using a range of methods, mainly the DNA sequencing of microbial communities that drive the fermentation process.

Chris - And just to be clear, because in a younger life I used to trade coffee and cocoa on the London Commodity Exchange, I'm one of the few people who's actually seen the raw material, the beans that you're referring to, because they're actually effectively the seeds that come out of the big pods that come off the cocoa-growing trees, aren't they? And those are the bits that we grind - the bean - up to get the raw material that becomes the cocoa solids in the chocolate bar. But around those is all this mushy stuff, and that is the material that you're saying then ferments. You've got various micro-organisms that get on that and ferment it when the beans are drying.

David - Yeah, essentially these beans are covered with a white sweet mucilage. And the farmers will leave the beans for maybe five to seven days. It's where we have micro-organisms that now infect the beans and drive the fermentation. And the fermentation, essentially, with these microbes,  they transform the beans from tasting like cardboard or just plant into something closer to what we would know as chocolate. So the microbes drive this chemical process.

Chris - How did you identify what microbes were doing what in this study then?

David - To do the study, we sequenced the total DNA from the fermentations. We used Oxford Nanopore DNA sequencing, and we analysed samples from day zero all the way to the end of the fermentation, about five to seven days afterwards. We were then able to identify which microbes were present and how much of them were present. And we did this across the three locations. Then we were able to compare the microbes and see which ones differed, by how much, and link this to actual chemical changes in the beans. This allowed us to link microbes to chemical profiles.

Chris - Obviously, the proof is in the eating. The way to test that would be to take what you think is the profile of microbes that goes with a profile of flavour, and apply those microbes to a different starting material and see if you can turn it into the other one. Did you do that?

David - Yeah, so to go about actually testing this hypothesis, we collected microbes, we isolated them, and then we inoculated beans. Then we monitored the changes in these beans, so we let these beans ferment in our lab. What we saw was quite remarkable. We saw similar chemical changes to the beans happening. So a lot of flavour precursor compounds. We were able to measure these volatiles. Ultimately, we had trained taste panels evaluate our lab-fermented beans and compare them to naturally fermented beans. Essentially what they found was, when it was re-fermented in the lab, it was very similar to what we saw in nature. And we were able to replicate this process.

Chris - This argues then that you could take beans from pretty much anywhere, even cheaper ones, and with the right magic from the right microbes, get something that tastes like really high-end chocolate. I can see that having both pros and cons though, because the industry purists are going to say that's removing some of the magic. On the other hand, the mass manufacturers are going to say, well, that's brilliant, we'll have a much higher-quality product and we can keep our cost base low.

David - I think at the very least, what we've shown in this study is that there is a lot of potential, and also it can be very disruptive to the industry. It's true, you can potentially take any variety, but having the right combination of microbes creates flavour profiles. For instance, if you want to produce a very high quality, with all these auxiliary notes in your beans, you just need the right combination of microbes to do this.

Polymita picta

Gene sequencing aims to save world's 'most beautiful' snail
Angus Davison, University of Nottingham

An international mission to save what many regard as the world's most beautiful snails is underway in the UK and the animals' native Cuba. The tree-dwelling molluscs, known as polymita snails, are prized for their incredibly colourful shells. Despite being protected, people collect them to turn into jewellery and other ornaments, which are internationally traded - illegally - for high prices. And this is driving the animals towards extinction. To try to better conserve them, evolutionary geneticist Angus Davison, at the University of Nottingham, has teamed up with researchers in Cuba to catalogue and study the snails, and sequence their genomes. For him, it was love at first sight, several decades ago...

Angus - They're beautiful and they have an extraordinary variety of different colours: red, orange, pink, yellow, green, brown, black. And then on top of that, they have all different kinds of patterns which are overlaid on that. An individual is extraordinary in the way it looks, but then when you go to a place in Cuba and find some of them and they're all different, it's just mind-blowing, it's amazing.

Chris - How large are they?

Angus - They are quite large. So some of the largest species would be approaching the size of a garden snail that you might see in this country.

Chris - And is that their downfall? They're pretty, so they're disappearing because people want them?

Angus - Yeah, that's the irony, isn't it? The reason I'm interested in them as an evolutionary geneticist is to understand the colour and the genetics and the beauty that brings to them. But that is also partly their downfall. So that means people are interested in them. People will collect them illegally, export them out of Cuba, where they'll sell them for quite high sums of money. So that's one of the reasons they're endangered.

Chris - How did you get involved in them?

Angus - So I've been working on snails for a ridiculous number of years now, for 30, I think, or nearly 30 years. And if you open up any book of snails, you might see some quite pretty pictures of snails, and then eventually you're going to see a book with these amazing Cuban Polymita snails in them, and that's when your jaw just drops. You think, wow. So I was lucky enough to go to Cuba in, I think, 2001. For the first time, we collected samples of all of the species with the aim to try to initiate these studies, but the political situation then was too difficult. And so I had to leave the specimens in the country. And so it's taken another 20 years since then, really, to get this project going. More recently, we worked with my Cuban collaborators. The Cuban Polymita won Mollusc of the Year in 2022, of which part of the prize for that was to have its DNA sequenced and assembled. So that's kind of a starting point for a lot of the genetics that we might wish to do with the snails.

Chris - Is it just one species then, or is it a whole group of related species that all have this characteristic, this trait, and are all similarly endangered?

Angus - We believe there are six species, and I think that's probably correct. The genetic studies that we're undertaking will ultimately show whether there actually are six species or not. All the historical taxonomic studies have suggested there are six species. And knowing how many species is interesting from an evolutionary standpoint, you can try to understand how they came about, what species they evolved from. But it's actually also important for conservation. So if there are six species, then of course you want to preserve six species. But if it turns out that you have a cryptic or hidden species, then you need to know that so you can preserve all of those species. And so you can't always recognise the species just by looking at the outward shell.

Chris - Can you also use the genetics in the same way that in, say, Africa, we can look at where ivory has come from by using genetics? And that can help to bear down on illegal ivory trades. Could it form part and parcel of that for the snails?

Angus - That would be lovely, yeah. So I know that ivory study, and it's just amazing work that they have done there. That's exactly right. So we're not doing that, but that would be a wonderful thing to do. So you could have a shell which has been illegally traded. There is probably what we would call ancient DNA within that shell somewhere. And you could then extract that DNA and work out where it came from. I think in the same way they did for the elephants, you could work out whether it came from a population that is there now - so still present and still alive - or actually the person selling it might claim that it was, say, harvested more than 50 years ago, and therefore it might be legal to trade it in some way or something like that. There's further benefits of doing that, of course, because we're studying the populations that remain today. There are populations that have gone extinct, but we don't know really how much of the underlying genetic diversity has been lost. So you could, for example, use museum specimens to then get a picture of everything that was there in the past as well.

Chris - And what about initiatives like captive breeding programmes and so on to try to boost numbers and therefore conserve what we do have before we lose any more?

Angus - Yes, that's a good idea. So what my Cuban collaborator is doing is trialling that at the moment. So we're not quite at the stage where we think that's necessary, but if it ever does become necessary, then of course you need the methods in place already so that you can take the few remaining into captivity. I have to say, though, it is difficult. So one of the reasons the shells are colourful is probably because they live in trees. Tree snails themselves are quite difficult to keep in captivity, in my view. At the same time, there are other reasons that bring them to captivity, so we don't really know what they eat. So of course he can trial to see what they eat. So it kind of adds to the picture of their biology as well at the same time.

Stone tools

Early human ancestors sought out preferred tool components
Emma Finestone, Cleveland Museum of Natural History

The question of when our ancestors first began to use tools is an important one: it steers our view of how our brains were developing and the relationships our ancestors had with the environment and various potential food sources. And what Emma Finestone, Associate Curator at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, has found in Kenya suggests that tool use was very much embedded in our behaviour by as early as 3 million years; she's shown that early hominins weren't just picking up and using handy bits of stone laying nearby - they were venturing for tens of kilometres to find the right sorts of stones to bring home and turn into tools, arguing that they very much knew what they were doing…

Emma - One big question is how did tool use begin and how important was it to the earliest tool users and tool makers? When we think about humans today, we're really dependent on our tool technology to solve adaptive problems and to access different food items. It's part of our life that we are really tied to. Everyone on earth uses tools. And the question when we think of 3 million years ago, 2.6 million years ago, is how important was tool use to those early tool makers and how were they making and using tools and integrating it into their daily lives and their movements across the landscape?

Chris - And what have we got to go on so far? When you look at the fossils we have and the remains we have and the things we've found, what sort of picture emerges before you come along with this current piece of research?

Emma - The earliest period of tool use, we know relatively little about because there are only a handful of archaeological sites that are older than 2 million years ago. What we do know is that hominins, which is a word that includes anyone in our family tree, were making and using tools and accessing food items. But what we don't know is how big this investment was and how far they were ranging for food resources and for tool resources. Non-human primates are known to use stone tools and can accidentally produce flakes that look like the same ones we find in the archaeological assemblage unintentionally, but they do it through a very opportunistic process where they have a food item and then they have stones that are available locally and they're just breaking apart a food item to access that food. The big question is in the earliest archaeological record, when we're talking about older than 2 million years ago, were hominins accessing food items in a similar way to non-human primates - where they're just cracking open a nut or maybe cutting something with an available stone nearby - or were they doing something more? Were they foraging for stones across the landscape and bringing them to places to process food?

Chris - Is that the key then? Is that what you've built your story around? The fact that if you've got evidence that someone is going and getting particular bits of stone because they make good tools, that's evidence that this must have been common practice at the time at which those individuals were active.

Emma - It's evidence that they were investing in tool behaviour because travelling a distance of several kilometres or 10 kilometres or more to get a specific type of rock, that takes a long time out of your day and that shows that that's really integrated into your foraging strategy if you're travelling to get stones, which in and of themselves have no caloric value to tool makers or to humans and their ancestors. So travelling to get stones shows that this is a behaviour that they're investing in and it's part of their foraging strategy from the onset of tool technology. And it also shows that they've already incorporated stone tools into their landscape patterns in their mental maps, which is a step beyond what we see in non-human primates. So it's an indicator of having mental maps and cognition to incorporate stone resources into their foraging routine and also an indicator that these hominins are foraging for stones as part of their foraging strategy, not just as an opportunistic one-off way to access a food item that they couldn't otherwise access.

Chris - And you've got evidence that this was happening.

Emma - Yeah, so at the site Nyanga, it's in Western Kenya and we've been working there since 2014. We have a stone tool assemblage between 2.6 and 3 million years old that has been made using both local but also non-local stone materials. We did a landscape-scale study where we were looking at which different materials are available throughout the landscape and which sources the hominins were accessing. And what we found is that the hominins were accessing not just local sources of stone, but they were accessing sources of stone that were 10 to 13 kilometres away from the Nyanga site, bringing them to the site and then processing food there using the stones that they obtained from further distances.

Chris - And you're comfortable that those stones didn't arrive where the hominins were by accident, that you're saying they brought them there and in fact, the environment somehow didn't. You're comfortable that this is active recovery of those stone pieces?

Emma - Yes, and how we know that, we first do analysis of where stones are available on the landscape from ancient riverbeds and from transport through rivers from primary sources to outcrops and riverbeds, which is where hominins are accessing the stone. So we surveyed ancient riverbeds to check what stones are available in which places. And then we also did a type of analysis that looks at the geochemistry, which is the trace elements of things in the rock that can link them to the sources on the landscape to check which sources are most similar to the artefacts that we have in the assemblage. And all of those indicators suggest that these stones were not locally available and that hominins travelled to get these stones and sometimes transported them directly to the site and flaked them on location.

Chris - So what's the take-home then? If you had to sort of write the newspaper headline, how would you sell this to a classroom full of eager palaeoanthropologists of the future?

Emma - I would sell it as stone tool behaviour was integrated into the daily life patterns of hominins 2.6 million years ago. We are a technologically dependent species. We rely on tool technology to survive and to access food. And it's likely that that has been happening for millions of years. Travelling that distance to obtain stone resources and foraging for stones with the same effort that hominins were foraging for food resources shows that this reliance on tool technology to survive, adapt, and to access different foods is what started off 2.6 million years ago and has continued today into being a key component of what makes us human.

Lines of colour joined together.

Which interpretation of quantum mechanics is the best?

Rowan Berkley took on Iain's question with the help of quantum physicist Maria Violaris...

Rowan - Thanks, Iain. Quantum mechanics, or quantum physics, is the branch of physics that describes the behaviour of matter and energy at the smallest scales, atoms and subatomic particles, like electrons. Interpretations of quantum mechanics are the big-picture takeaways from the things it theoretically tells us. Dr Maria Violaris joins us today. She is a quantum research scientist, science communicator, and content creator on her YouTube channel.

Maria - Superposition is one of the really fundamental and interesting phenomena. So that's this phenomenon that a system described by quantum mechanics can be in two states at the same time. What happens when you observe a system is that you just see one of those states. So you collapse the superposition. That's the terminology that we use. The other one that I'd highlight is entanglement. Let's say you've got two people. One's called Alice, and she's got one of these particles. The other person is called Bob, and he's got another one of these particles. If Alice and Bob each individually take measurements of their particle, they can get correlations between their measurements that are much stronger than anything that you can get with classical physics. It's much more powerful than, say, how a pair of socks is correlated when you move them far apart.

Rowan - Interpretations of quantum mechanics are the theories of what these phenomena mean for reality.

Maria - So what happens in the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment, you've got a cat that is in a superposition of being dead and alive, but then when you observe it, when you open the box, which has this cat inside, you just see it dead or you just see it alive. You only see a single state. How did that collapse actually happen? I think it's most useful to divide them into two categories. One theory which says that when you observe the cat, it kind of irreversibly collapses into just one state, like dead or alive. That's known as the Copenhagen interpretation. And the other set of interpretations is the idea that the measurement of the cat or the measurement of a superposition is actually a reversible process. The many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics says that because you're applying quantum mechanics to the observer that looks at the cat as well, the observer is actually joining in that superposition and the observer has one version of themselves that sees the cat dead and one version that sees the cat alive. Really, these are kind of two categories of entire families of interpretations.

Rowan - What about the recent experiments or advances that Iain is referring to in this question?

Maria - I know lots of people were asking something similar recently when the Google Willow chip was announced. It essentially showed that something called quantum error correction is possible. And they showed that you can do certain computations on this chip that would take longer than the age of the universe to do on a classical computer. If you've done a computation on this chip that would have taken a classical computer longer than the age of the universe, even if it was using all the atoms in the universe, then physically, where did this computation take place? Like what was physically doing it? As a response, you could say, well, this shows that the multiverse interpretation is true because - as opposed to an interpretation where there's a collapse into a single world or these different versions of reality don't actually exist - you say, well, they must exist because otherwise, where did that power come from? Where was it happening? I think that the progress in our interpretations and in physics is never finished. So I don't really see a final, true interpretation as coming out because I think that there's a theory beyond quantum theory that we're going to discover at some point and that might change our conception of the world again.

Rowan - So Iain, recent quantum experiments and discoveries do not lead us to a definitive correct interpretation, but recent advances in computing power could be an argument for the many-worlds or multiverse interpretation.

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