Pompeii DNA, and a black hole feeding faster than it should

Plus, the launch of the norovirus vaccine trial...
08 November 2024
Presented by Chris Smith
Production by Rhys James, James Tytko.

BLACK HOLE

An artist's impression of a black hole

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New NICE guidance urges HRT as a first-line treatment for menopause symptoms, the enormous black hole that doesn’t obey our existing laws of physics, and what DNA analysis is revealing about the people who inhabited Pompeii...

In this episode

Women on bench

00:57 - HRT guidance updated by NICE

Should hormonal treatment for menopause be the norm?

HRT guidance updated by NICE
Heather Currie, Menopause Matters

The health assessment body NICE has said that women with menopause symptoms should be offered hormone replacement therapy as first-line treatment, not therapy. To find out more, we put in a call to Heather Currie. Heather is a gynaecologist, the founder of Menopause Matters and she also served as chair of the British Menopause Society…

Heather - HRT is hormone replacement therapy and it is currently the most effective treatment for menopausal symptoms and the consequences of menopause because menopause is all around becoming low on oestrogen. So it kind of makes sense that the hormones that we're replacing with HRT are aiming to counteract the effects of being low on oestrogen.

Chris - And what sorts of symptoms does that include?

Heather - The commonest symptoms are flushes and sweats, and this is related to the lack of oestrogen causing the thermostat in our brain going a bit wonky. So our body thinks it's overheating when it's not and switches on these flushes and sweats to try and cool us down when it doesn't need to. But there are also very common mood changes. So low mood anxiety, depressed mood, difficulty concentrating, often sleep disturbance and joint aches. And these symptoms are probably less well known, although there has been much more awareness of the range of symptoms over the last few years.

Chris - And what fraction of people might benefit from taking HRT?

Heather - I don't think we have a definite number. So statistics are produced around the numbers of people that are currently taking it and that has increased massively over recent years. Following a fall over 20 years ago with publication of some quite big studies, there was a big loss in confidence and the numbers of people taking treatment dropped significantly. But after many years of trying to get risks back in perspective, of trying to emphasise the benefits of HRT, then numbers have gradually increased and in recent years have gone up massively. So it's up to each woman to work out how the symptoms are affecting her, what the impact is, being aware of what treatments are available and making an informed choice for herself.

Chris - And what are NICE saying now then that's different?

Heather - They are saying that HRT should be offered first line as treatment for menopausal symptoms. That was also in the 2015 guideline, but there's a bit more focus this time on the role of HRT for menopausal symptoms. However you would think we'd know everything there is to know about HRT by now. And we do know a lot, but there are still some aspects that we're not sure about.

Chris - Given we must now have a lot of data over a long period of time on the use of HRT, what sorts of associations are we seeing with different disease outcomes though? What's it stopping people getting? What is it not affecting? And what might it increase the risk of getting?

Heather - We know that it is really good for our bone health and reduces the risk of osteoporosis, bone thinning and osteoporosis related fracture. The two that are a bit controversial in particular, cardiovascular disease, so heart disease. Many, many years ago we strongly believed the HRT taken within 10 years of the menopause did reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. And that has shifted a bit. Generally it isn't so clear that is the case. And what NICE has come out saying is while there's no increased risk of cardiovascular disease with HRT, there isn't an absolute reduction. Dementia is another reason that women have started to consider the use of HRT to look at will that reduce the risk of dementia. But the evidence coming out is that it isn't clear that that is the case.

Chris - What about breast cancer? Because that's spooked a lot of people. 20 years ago there was an association drawn between HRT use and risk of breast cancer. This has put many people off in the meantime. What do the data show around that and what's our stance now?

Heather - It has. So the stats used by NICE, which is shown very clearly on the visual aids, shows that over 20 years from 50 to 69, if women don't take HRT, 59 out of 1000 women will develop breast cancer. If women take combined HRT for five years, over those 20 years, there would be 20 more women. And if they took combined HRT for 10 years, over those 20 years, the total would be 33 more women compared to women who do not take HRT. Now that might sound like a scary number, but it's all about getting risk in perspective. So in that time, if the women taking HRT had fantastic quality of life and actually were aware of the risk, everyone needs to be aware of the risk, but it is trying to keep it in perspective. And other things are also risk factors for breast cancer. So it's not just about taking HRT, it's around other lifestyle factors such as our weight or taking alcohol, for example. So it remains a choice as long as it's an informed choice.

Feeling sick

05:60 - Norovirus vaccine trial launches

Fighting back against the winter vomiting bug...

Norovirus vaccine trial launches
Patrick Moore

A vaccine trial - called the Nova-301 trial - has just launched across the world to find out if we can protect people against norovirus. The stomach bug is rife at the moment across the Northern hemisphere. It causes millions of cases of diarrhoea and vomiting each year, and it spreads like wildfire, partly because each infected person has enough virus leaving their body, upwards and downwards to potentially infect the entire world population. And it doesn’t only hit hospital wards and schools - but also national growth. So, how might a vaccine help? Well it’s being made by Moderna, one of the companies behind the Covid jabs used during the pandemic, and it’s based on the same sort of technology: the mRNA message coding for parts of the virus that the immune system can react to is injected and hopefully primes a protective response. Dorset GP Dr Patrick Moore is the chief investigator on the study…

Patrick - Norovirus is also known as the winter vomiting bug. It tends to cause severe nausea and vomiting with diarrhoea that lasts about one to three days.

Chris - And how much does this cost the economy, do we think?

Patrick -
If you look at the effect on the NHS, so how much does it cost to give patients who have norovirus the treatment, it's about a hundred million pounds per year. But when you take into account other financial factors, such as lost earnings for example, it's probably estimated around 300 million pounds a year.

Chris - Goodness, it's a lot isn't it? There must be millions of cases to reach that sort of figure. It must be running into the millions of cases per year.

Patrick - Globally, we have about 685 million cases a year. In the UK it's about 4 million.

Chris - There's certainly big numbers. And at the moment there is no way to prevent them apart from infection control and keeping out of the way of people who've got it, presumably?

Patrick - That's correct. So the only treatment is actually supportive. So it's oral rehydration or intravenous rehydration, which is usually a hospital admission.

Chris - And how easy is it to catch?

Patrick - This is one of the most transmissible viruses that we have, actually. It is extremely easy to catch it. So it's either aerosol, someone's vomiting in the same room, or it's what they call faecal oral.

Chris - What's the strategy that's being taken then to try to prevent people catching it?

Patrick - So we're looking to see if we can vaccinate against this virus. It's quite a difficult virus to vaccinate against because there are so many different genotypes and genogroups. So norovirus is actually a family of viruses. And actually if you look at all of the viruses that are out there, there's 10 genotypes. And in those genotypes there's 49 genogroups.

Chris - So presumably you could catch one and make it a response to that, but then if you caught a related one a bit later on, you would have fewer defences against that and you become ill again. So it's pretty tricky to stop it.

Patrick - Yeah, correct. I mean, not all of those viruses circulate within humans, but there are certain viruses that are more popular in humans, and that's what the vaccine is trying to protect against. So they've taken three of those viruses and they've produced a vaccine to protect against those three common viruses that we have in humans.

Chris - And what's the nature of the trial you're doing? How does it run? Who's the Guinea pig effectively and what's the nature of the vaccine?

Patrick - So this is what they call a Phase 3 trial. We have been through the earlier phases. The Phase 1 and the Phase 2 trials have shown a good safety profile and also that the bodies produce a good antibody response to the vaccine. We're looking to recruit in the UK about 2,500 participants from about 27 NHS sites. It's quite a large trial and it's what they call a double blind randomised control trial, which basically means that nobody knows whether you get the active vaccine or whether you get a sort of a saline vaccine. And what we do then is we then measure the efficacy, so how well the vaccine works.

Chris - Presumably you'll be looking at the people you vaccinate to see what the rates of natural infection are then and seeing if you get fewer of those infections in the people who've got the real deal versus the saline placebo. And if you do, then you can argue it seems to be protecting people.

Patrick - That's exactly how it works. Yeah. And obviously we'll be measuring and monitoring the safety profile of the vaccine as well and whether it's tolerated well and ensure that our participants are safe.

Chris - How long are you going to follow the participants up for?

Patrick - Trials are running for two years. We vaccinate our participants. We then do a two year follow up. So in that time we'll look to see how well the antibody response is there for, but also we'll then be measuring whether there are any cases of gastroenteritis which are caused by Norovirus. And that will give us our efficacy endpoint.

Chris - And going forward, let's assume that you do get the result we're all hoping you do and this does work. How is it going to be used?

Patrick - That's a decision for the regulatory authorities to decide how it's being used. But certainly from a medical GP perspective, we do have a significant burden in hospitals and care homes, not just with the residents but also the staff as well. They have a lot of time off work and a lot of pressure on the NHS over the winter months. Ultimately, I see that as the main benefit.

Chris - Would it join the ranks of the annual flu and possibly Covid vaccines that we give people? Given that this does seem to have a seasonality to it, it becomes more common in winter and less so the rest of the year. So it would make sense to kind of front load the system or anticipate when someone's going to come into hospital, give them a dose of this before they come in with enough lead time, obviously, so that they're less likely to succumb when they're in.

Patrick - Yeah, I mean that's a good idea. But I suppose there's two things to sort of understand first, which we'll be looking at in the trial. So the first thing is how long does immunity last? We don't know that yet. And it could be that it lasts for a year. It could be that it lasts longer. And then the second thing is how much is the virus changing? How is it evolving? We don't know whether that vaccine will be effective in subsequent years. So again, that is something that we need to be looking at with this study.

An artist's impression of a black hole

A hungry black hole is breaking the laws of physics
Ed Bloomer, Royal Observatory Greenwich

Astronomers have discovered a supermassive black hole that appears to break the law of physics. Well sort of. At the centre of the distant LID-568 galaxy resides an enormous black hole, revealed to us recently by the James Webb Space Telescope. It’s millions of times more massive than our Sun. But what’s weird about it is that it appears to be consuming material at a rate 40 times faster than the theoretical maximum, which is known as the Eddington Limit. Why this matters is that it might help to resolve a long standing quandary in physics, which is how galaxies come by these supermassive black holes at their centres in the first place. Maybe, if some small black holes can binge-eat at rates like this one is displaying, they can grow sufficiently big sufficiently quickly to account for what we see. Edward Bloomer is an astronomer at the Royal Observatory Greenwich and he’s been taking a look at the new study…

Ed - This week we are shedding a little bit of light on the development of black holes. How do they start and how do they get to what we observe nowadays.

Chris - They're quite common in the universe, aren't they black holes? But they come in a range of different shapes and sizes. So which ones are you referring to?

Ed - They certainly come in different sizes. We have everything from stellar mass black holes, that's black holes that are about the same mass as the sun, but we've also got supermassive black holes and they can reach millions or even billions of times the mass of the sun. And we are talking about one that's sort of in the middle. It's a couple of million times the mass of the sun.

Chris - These usually are found at the centres of galaxies, is that right?

Ed - Well, that's right. So one of the problems is trying to build up information about the population of black holes. They're pretty difficult to detect, but you might have heard that lots of galaxies, maybe even almost all galaxies, have black holes towards the centre.

Chris - And I suppose then the big question is, well, we've got a galaxy, it's got this entity at the centre of it, but how did one come by the other?

Ed - This is where this new discovery is really interesting. So there's two ways to think about it. One might be that in the very early universe you have truly supermassive stars. They don't live for very long. They explode and they leave behind a black hole that then starts to grow or primordial gas and dust clouds collapse down and they produce black holes. And that sounds pretty similar, but one of them starts with a much lighter black hole and the other one much heavier. So you're sort of starting the race from two different positions. And the question is, how do you grow from that initial position to what we witness? When we look at other galaxies and we see these supermassive black holes

Chris - How can that be probed then? How can we get the answer to that?

Ed - It's a very difficult thing, but this is where this black hole is kind of interesting. It's feeding on a lot. It's incredibly bright. So it's really gobbling stuff up. Black holes can feed on things, you can throw things into black holes and they feed and they grow. But the issue is there's only so much time in the universe. The universe is almost 14 billion years old, so we've only got a certain amount of time to grow. And when we look at young black holes, they've had less time to grow. And so that helps us try to work at the rate that this black hole might be growing.

Chris - Is there a speed limit at which black holes are thought to be able to grow? Then it's not just a question of you just force feed them and rather like foie gras you can get an enormous black hole quickly That is thought not to be feasible then.

Ed - So this is where this is really interesting, this particular black hole, because it's feeding at much higher than, not a hard limit, but a sort of traditional limit to its luminosity. This, so-called Eddington limit. Basically the more the stuff that falls in, the more radiation pressure gets produced, that blows stuff away. Now you can overcome that, but one of the ideas was that you could only overcome it in short periods of time. This one seems to be feeding certainly at a huge rate, and that means that if you could maintain that rate, then it could get to the size that you want or you've essentially bought yourself a little bit of wiggle room. Maybe it doesn't grow so fast at some point, but periodically or maybe even just once every now and then it sort of feasts for a little while.

Chris - It's like a binge eating black hole.

Ed - Yes. And so the question is how often does that happen? Can you maintain it? Is this a characteristic of the black hole in its early development? How does it relate to the galaxy itself? Now, it might be that all of these things are sort of linked in a very complex framework. But this one seems a bit of an outlier and you hope to use those weird edge cases to sort of illuminate what's going on with everything else.

Chris - In summary, then what has been spotted is a supermassive black hole evolving, which is eating material and normally with a black hole as it ingests stuff, it produces some radiation as the stuff goes in. And that radiation eventually gets so strong it stops more stuff going in in the meantime, and that's that theoretical limit you mentioned. But this one seems to buck the trend. Do we have any theories though as to how it could buck that trend, that Eddington limit, so it can binge?

Ed - You are right in that this is really well beyond that Eddington limit perhaps by a factor of more than 40. Frankly, I'll be honest, this is something that people are still discussing and still trying to work out what is absolutely possible.

Chris - What do space scientists think then off the back of this observation? How does that shift the balance or the viewpoint around which of those models, the ones we outlined at the beginning for how these galaxies come by their supermassive black holes initially, how that happens?

Ed - Well, I think probably what's going to happen is you're going to have a lot of astronomers arguing one way or the other for quite a while, but it does suggest a little bit of support for the idea that you can start off with something much lighter to begin with that are still able to grow fast enough to achieve what we see.

Archaeological artefacts recovered from Pompeii

19:05 - Pompeii DNA sequenced from 2000 year old remains

Some previous theories may have been a load of hot air...

Pompeii DNA sequenced from 2000 year old remains
Alissa Mittnik, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology

In 79 AD, a huge eruption of Mount Vesuvius destroyed the ancient city of Pompeii. It covered everything in a layer of ash, and, in the process, preserved some of the bodies of the people who lived there. Visitors can see plaster casts made in the late 1800s of some of these remains. And, incredibly, when those casts were recently taken for restoration, a team of scientists were able to extract DNA from the remains of the 2000 year old victims encased within some of them. But while the bodies are certainly authentic Vesuvius victims, the genetic analysis has also pulled the rug from under some of the more romantic narratives that historians have woven previously about the bodies. Alissa Mittnik at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology is one of the team behind the work…

Alissa - Notoriously, DNA preservation is not very good over long-term in warm climates such as the Mediterranean. Then of course the extreme heat of the Vesuvius eruption might have also contributed to the destruction of DNA. So first of all, we just wanted to see, would we be able to retrieve authentic ancient DNA, and then we really wanted to test some of these popular narratives that had been projected onto some of the individuals from which casts had been made in the past.

Chris - I think I've seen those casts, because I've been to both Pompeii and Herculaneum. It's a very striking place isn't it? But these are the plaster casts of the victims. They were made decades ago, weren't they, some of those plaster casts?

Alissa - Yes, so the method was first developed in the 19th century and since then over a hundred casts have been made. They would find some kind of cavity in this compacted ash sediment and then pour plaster in and then excavate that, and see what it actually was. A human that died there, an animal perhaps? That's quite interesting to think about what actually happened to the bones inside that cavity. So the soft tissue was decaying and the skeletal elements remained and they kind of followed gravity and fell down in this cavity. Then the actual pouring of the plaster would have moved around the bone some more. So what we were working with was, 86 of the plaster cast were undergoing reconstruction at that time, a restoration because they had been damaged in the past during the second World War. So at some of the points in the plaster, we could actually see inside the cast and we could see the bones that were embedded in the plaster. That's where we could take samples for our DNA study.

Chris - Do you get good quality DNA out of that, even nearly 2000 years later?

Alissa - It was difficult. So we sampled a total of 14 individuals, and in the end we only got usable analysable data for five of them. Then we also have to make sure that this is not any modern contamination that was introduced by any of the researchers, the archaeologists or anthropologists, that had been working with these casts in the past.

Chris - Some of them were probing the site even several hundred years ago, weren't they? People became interested in the Pompeian site. So how do you know this really is authentic Roman or Roman era DNA?

Alissa - There are some in silico methods, so by analysing the genetic sequencing data that we get, we can check for certain characteristics that are typical for old DNA. We do have somewhat a picture of what we could expect perhaps for general patterns of ancestry during the Roman era. There has been a big study done on the city of Rome during that time period, and what we found was that, what we see in Pompeii is quite similar.

Chris - Can this begin to give us some insights into the kinds of people who were in Pompeii?

Alissa - Yes, that was part of the analysis we did. So, we looked at different parts of the genome, the nuclear genome that is inherited both from the mother and the father, and then the mitochondrial genome that is inherited only from the mother's side. We compare that to populations around the world, both modern day populations as well as contemporaneous populations, where there has already been ancient DNA published. We related the individuals from Pompeii to see who they were most close to. That gave us some information about who their most recent ancestors could have been, and from which region of the world they originated.

Chris - What emerged then, because Pompei was an interesting place, wasn't it? It was a very rich Roman town. There were a lot of what we in the modern era would call posh people living there, very well moneyed, educated. They also had a large number of people working for them who would've been less so. Does that get reflected potentially in what you see in the DNA?

Alissa - During the Roman imperial era there's a real explosion of genetic diversity, and there's also a greater influence from the Eastern Mediterranean regions like Aegean, Anatolia, the Levant. Although Pompeii is a much smaller town, we do see the same pattern. So there is a large genetic diversity and we see this more Eastern Mediterranean genetic influence. Of course, this could be because these people were indeed themselves migrants from that region or their parents or grandparents were. The surprising thing was that in some of the cases that we studied, the DNA infected did not agree with some of these narratives that had been popularly spread. For example, we were looking at this group of four individuals from the house of the golden bracelet. These were two adults and two small children, and one of the adults was cradling one of the children on their lap. They were traditionally interpreted as being a mother and her child, and the other adult was the father of this group, and there was a second child, so a nuclear family.

Alissa - What we found is that, in fact, all four of these individuals were males. They were also genetically distinct from each other. When we look at their ancestry, although we can't create any definitive new story for these people, we don't know exactly who they were, and how they were related to each other. But it just shows us that maybe the first idea that comes to mind, the most intuitive or the most dramatic, is not the accurate one. We have to keep open mind. I was quite happy to be able to contribute to these people's story and maybe bring their truth a bit closer to us.

Cancer cells

Are cancer screening tests effective?

Thanks to Rebecca Fitzgerald for the answer!

James - Cancer Research UK estimates that roughly one in two of us will develop some form of cancer in our lifetime. Survival rates are improving as we continue to develop better treatments, which are most effective when we catch cancers in their early stages. That's where screening tests come in. The more we deploy and the more effective they are, the more we can improve outcomes for cancer patients. But when it comes to screening tests, there are different kinds, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. As a rule of thumb, a general screening test might be less likely to pick up a cancer than a test specifically designed to catch that kind of malignancy. But does that mean they aren't worth taking? Here's Rebecca Fitzgerald, professor of Cancer Prevention and Director of the Early Cancer Institute at the University of Cambridge.

Rebecca - Yes, I think that the development of blood tests that can screen for multiple cancers is a really exciting new field. The technology's advancing very rapidly, and so it's still relatively early days to be sure how accurate these tests will be, particularly for early stage disease. The detection rate is generally low for early stage cancers, though there is some complexity. For example, there's some evidence that they may detect more aggressive cancers earlier than less aggressive ones. That's a very good thing, but it's also important to be aware that some cancers may be easier to detect than others through DNA and proteins shed into the blood.

James - Interesting. So could these tests carve out a role for themselves amongst our current screening initiatives?

Rebecca - Overall, I think we need more evidence from trials to understand which of these tests work best. There are lots of companies developing the tests and they're really focused on how they might be used clinically. For example, should we use them to test individuals with no symptoms? And if so, at what age? How often should we test to maximise their clinical usefulness and avoid false negatives? How do they complement existing screening tests and what happens if the test is positive and no cancer is found? What do we do then?

James - These are the questions health services will have to weigh up when deciding whether to add them to their toolkit, given that they can be pricey. But what about for an individual who might have the cash? Would you recommend taking a test like this?

Rebecca - My advice would be to take part in trials as that's how we answer these questions and advance the field. However, based on the current evidence, I wouldn't recommend paying for a multi cancer blood test for screening outside of a trial.

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